You are currently viewing Episode #40 – Living Our Best Lives with Topanga

Episode #40 – Living Our Best Lives with Topanga

We’re living our best lives in this conversation with the wonderful Topanga on Episode #40 of the Tom, Stu and You Podcast. Topanga matched with Stu on Bumble a few months ago, and after months of hilarious chats, they decided to share their wisdom with people in a podcast episode. We cover quite a few different topics in this chat, so sit back, and enjoy the sounds of our beautiful voices as you try not to fall asleep (if you know, you know! haha).   


Key Message: Remember to take the time to check in with yourself, and look after others where you can. 


What we talk about in this episode:

  • Finding love online
  • Long distance emotional support
  • Societal pressure to be settled down
  • Importance of a fresh start
  • Living life for yourself
  • What is life like in NYC
  • When those you love have different political opinions to your own
  • Why Topanga embraces the hustle vs living life now
  • Finding work you love
  • Setting loose goals for life
  • What makes a good manager


Who is Topanga?

Topanga updated her location on bumble to Toronto and it led her to this podcast. She’s a career-focused woman in NYC, with a fresh start on the horizon in Chicago. If you’re looking to rebrand, for a good laugh or to simply make a friend in the U.S. – she’s your girl.


You can check out Topanga’s life at the below links:


Thank you! 

You can now watch our podcasts on Youtube if you’d prefer to also check us out while listening to our beautiful voices 😉 Head over to our Youtube channel at Tom, Stu and You Podcast 


Like us on Facebook and Instagram @tomstuandyou or send us an email at with any questions, comments, thoughts, or queries you have on the topics we’ve discussed or any suggestions of topics you’d like to hear us address. 


Thanks so much for your support!

Episode #40 - Living Our Best Lives with Topanga.wav - powered by Happy Scribe

Welcome to the Tom, Stu and You podcast, episode 40 special guest Topanga. Yeah, that was really my best effort, guys, so that's take that. That's perfect.

As I said, nailed it. As I said, when we started, like most of our guests, do better than us at introducing our podcast, which is saying something you don't have to feel better about the energy will come.

Yeah. So Topanga. Well, it's a little warm. Welcome. Welcome. Who are you? Why are you here?

Thanks for coming to my podcast.

How did you how do you know, Stu, let's start with that, because I feel like that's quite an interesting story Tom with the goss already.

First question right off of the bat. Let's just get it out. So I was talking to somebody about Canada and what the men in Canada might look like if they are better than the boys in Brooklyn. So jokingly changed my location was swiping wasn't messaging anybody, but was getting a bunch of matches as a pretty girl does. I get that.

And I think it was like Stu and. Nearly one other person, because they had something funny on their profile and I just was this other person, we even talked about this this is this new information. This is new. Yeah. I'm just trying to make you jealous, but that person basically just got like a comment that was linked to whatever they had on their profile first do I just kind of came in hot and was like, listen, try not to fall in love with me.

I probably have messages on my phone, so I think we should have a quick little read.

So do you think also just to provide some context, I was in Toronto at the time, so it's not this is what I found.

This is what I found interesting because you were in Canada, in Toronto and Tupamaros in Brooklyn, and that is like 8 hundred kilometers or nearly eight hundred kilometers or something like that. So I was like those, you know, you just both custom and that super wide. Now we know that location was Chadstone.

It's also fine because I'm not Canadian. And she was purely on there looking for a Canadian and just match with like only I could mess it up and find an Australian.

I mean, that's not the other thing that's hard to do in Canada, though, is it? No, it's not really defined in Australia, not necessarily from the mountains in Canada. Yeah. So, yeah, first message Topanga. Try not to fall in love with me. My roommate and I just wanted to see if men in Toronto were hotter than men in Brooklyn. And my message back was, what is the verdict? You have come to play in real hard to get, obviously.

And she said, I have decided that you specifically are hotter than these Brooklyn boys.

Now, I must say, as someone fishing for compliments, which is really the only reason you're on dating apps these days, that is that is a strong opener, a very strong open up. Right.

I have to pay attention. Attention got. And somehow you ended up on a podcast a couple of months later. So it worked.

So, yeah, I mean, my response then was, well, how can I not fall in love when you're giving me compliments like that? And she said, say, I'm charming. This is going to be really difficult for you. So confident straight out the confidence is actually about confidence.

A month and a half later, I responded with that much longer. It was that much longer on. I was busy, I was driving back across the country, like to episode 36 or whatever.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Our previous episode, um, my response was I realize this is a million years later, but I wanted to say I appreciated that banter, solid start, perfect execution. Not sure how you're on an app like this and not in someone's lap instead. Not my best, but it was like it.

I was like, OK, all right. So yeah. So now we're like husband and wife. Um. Which is probably giving my mother a heart attack right now because she is not aware that I have eloped, not just getting them or not, it's OK, it's OK.

But I did think that it brought up a fun topic to discuss, which is that during a pandemic, I feel like dating apps have become almost like an area of finding emotional support and also banter laughs and good chats with a random stranger.

Yeah, I mean, that's one of my favorite things to do, is just like you people in the conversation and sense of humor in a friend or a partner is just like so important. So finding someone who can go back and forth with you just makes conversation so much more. Yeah, and also, like I'm not saying that many people around here right now, because we're in a lockdown, but not really in a lockdown because no one's actually said we're in a lockdown, but also cases are bad.

So we're trying not to say anyone right now.

I'm not about to give up someone, somebody gave me so many good compliments and then go into lockdown, my. I want to get those companies every day.

You're out for the compliments. For the record, you have a lot more than I compliment. And I'm proud of me at least once a day. I believe it.

And I'm sure if a psychologist and I listen to this episode, maybe they have a lot of things that I would bring up about this weird thing. But I think it's quite healthy to have to have someone who's geographically undesirable is Topanga likes to say geographically undesirable is interesting. And we can just chat and we talk about the dates that we've been on and like what's going on in our lives. And it's just it's good to have a I mean, Tom, you're a friend of mine that lives in a different country and that's a hunger is to it.

We just we make it. We make it work. Yeah.

We just happen to meet on a daily basis, that's for sure. Exactly as it does. So, Topanga, what is your general? We talked about dating apps and things like that in the past, but what is your general opinion of these dating apps? Do you like them or do you hate them?

Um. Love, hate relationship, I would say dating apps and being on them almost just for the compliments and the attention, and I think that's a huge part of it. But I think I just genuinely like meeting people, meeting new people, and it just allows me to meet some people that maybe never would have come across if you hadn't been on that app at the right time, right place kind of thing. Like you're not even based in Toronto where you were in Toronto at that moment when I happened to change the location for myself.

And we never would. Of course not. But here we are on this podcast now. I think I look at it as. Slightly unhealthy, I think that it's a lot easier to form a false emotional connection and to feel like you're getting attention from someone, that it's these weird relationships where I think people kind of like hop right into something rather than taking the time to really get to know each other. But I've met some really great people and I read a lot of friends who I am single beyond my marriage to do so.

I haven't met anyone that was like head over heels, wanted to hop into a relationship. But I think I've gotten a lot of funny stories and some lifelong friendships out of out of that. So as much as I kind of go on them and I'm like, this isn't where I'm going to meet my husband, it's going to be in a bar or walking through the park or something like that. I mean, who knows? Who knows? And I mean, realistically, it's 20, 20, almost 20, 21.

The whole idea of having to meet someone in person, you know, bumping into them in the grocery store, at the bar, I mean, one that's not going to happen right now. Like, you're not going to be just you don't want to meet a stranger right now. Like you're trying to keep your bubble real small. But also it is just like a romantic idea where so dating apps have almost been looked down upon for some reason, as if you can't make a real connection on there when, you know, for a lot of people, that's the only option they've got right now.

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I've met so many interesting people with different stories, different backgrounds, one guy and I actually started seeing each other and realized that we were like the same person and became best friends, like inseparable. So it's been great. And I don't think that there's a problem meeting someone on an app. I think that's great if it works out just for me. But I also think that I like the idea of meeting someone in person, because as great as my interest was to you, it can be really difficult to start a real conversation where your personality is shining through and that someone can actually see who you are just behind the screen.

But in person, if I'm before the pandemic, I was walking around smiling, laughing, making everyone around me laugh. And then a person sees you and just walks up to you because they feel like you're your personality is. Shining through in person, maybe just across the bar, and now they want to talk to you. So that's always been great, but clearly that has worked out so well. Not yet.

Yeah, because I am not as charming as I think of you ever used to just that we spoke about. I actually not really, but I did change my location to Chicago maybe two weeks ago, and it really was like I I the people that I message, I was just kind of like, I'm not in Chicago yet. I'm moving there. It doesn't even have to be like a romantic connection. But it would be awesome to start getting to know a few people and go grab a beer.

I'm going to need friends more so than I'm going to boyfriend. So. So I met one really nice guy who was like, yeah, no, totally. I won't be around for the holidays. They'll be back and probably working out. But it's he's like super strict about covid. So he was just like the whole like, let's have proof that we get tested. And we kind of made the joke that in this pandemic, meeting new people is like the new unprotected sex.

It's just like, what have you done? Have you been tested? So, I mean, really, I'm seeing a lot of parallels there, so. Well, that's that's pretty much it for we're dating apps for me, but I've definitely had a lot of funny conversations.

I'm very funny girl, kind of stupid, stupid, outrageous is the other one I don't use.

But I can also be funny. And so you're moving to Chicago, as you just mentioned then. So where did that decision come from?

And I guess we are what is what is life like living in the US to start with and then Brooklyn to Chicago is going to be a bit of a change.

Yeah, well, so it was kind of a spontaneous decision for me, my lease was ending January 1st and my roommate and I just kind of started talking about if we wanted to stay here, what we were going to do. The city obviously looks a lot different right now. And it's not it's not the New York that I think a lot of us love and know so well. And it's still amazing, but it's just not the life that we used to have.

So I think that started having a lot of people, probably in any major city start thinking like, should I just move home and save some money and just work on myself and not necessarily be like dishing out all this rent. But we got chatting, decided that we thought we were going to leave. She's going to travel for a little while. She's going to go to Mexico for like a month. And I was like, OK, maybe it's time to really sit down and start thinking about what I want.

I'm twenty six and my deepest connections are friendships right now. And as you guys have proven, you didn't still in a weird way that we did. This isn't really an issue. So community and so we in contact can still be friends. Of course, I have my mom here too, but an hour and a half flight isn't really a big deal. And I, I never thought that New York was going to be my forever home. And so now that I'm in my mid twenties, heading towards the later end of my twenties and I don't have these major things like a marriage or children, if not now when?

I guess so. Do you feel the pressure of that to to achieve those things? And you think that pressure comes from societies, that societal pressure? I don't know that I feel. Of pressure, I think I did, I was younger, I think that's something that a lot of women grow up feeling, is this biological clock ticking and it's just like very loud, scared, and then I think started becoming more independent. And just like growing as an individual, I realized that, yes, it's something I want, but that doesn't have to be determined by other people.

And also a person that I don't like to settle. I want the best. I deserve the best. And so I'm not going to get married. I'm twenty eight and pop out a few kids because everyone thinks that maybe I should do that before 30. I mean, but like I said, I want that future, but I'm also not white picket fence. I think that comes out in a lot of my stories is not like the white toast or this white picket fence.

Life around me is I think, exciting and. It's not about like running around and not ever settling down, but I just don't think that I fit a certain mold that is out there and it's very hard to find. You find it hard sometimes to. Well, do you find that you don't know maybe compared to where other people are in life with that compared to friends like I have a lot of friends nowadays who are married and have kids, and sometimes it is hard to not look at that and go like, you know, it's not what I was.

That's what I should be doing. You do do you find. I do.

I think that I'm hard on myself sometimes. And even without that pressure that we were talking about, when I'm I keep being asked to be a bridesmaid, which is fun. That's great. But I'm also like, wow, a lot of people want me to be in their wedding and I'm very happy to be at all.

I love you all.

But I think as are seeing everyone get engaged, get married, have kids, my best friend of.

When for years just got married, she has two kids with her husband and I've been along for the whole ride and that that journey for her started super early. We were 18 when she got pregnant with their first. And so that didn't feel like, oh, is this what I should be doing? But now that we're all getting older and I'm seeing this happen, I think I started being part of myself and wondering, what am I doing wrong? And it's it's funny when you hear it's not funny, but when you start thinking like that, when you know, it's not even about that for you, I think it's just like you see all this happening and you start thinking like maybe there's something wrong with me.

Maybe that's why I haven't found a person. But then when we talk about things like careers, which I know we were going to touch on, I want to focus on myself. I want to be my best self. I want to be like myself and feel comfortable with where I am in my life. And I'm not going to put this, like, commitment, this forever commitment to someone if I'm not there. That's not to say you can't grow with someone.

But I also think that I go through a lot of life being like I'm not necessarily there yet. I'm not necessarily there yet. But then when you see it happening for everyone else, you're like, well, why am I not there yet? Like, what's wrong with me? So, yeah, I guess that's a long winded answer to the societal pressure. But yeah, I guess I don't really feel that. But I definitely have my moments where I'm like.

What are you doing, something better? Yeah, I mean, and everything's a toss up, right? It's like it's very hard to know what it's like. Is the grass actually greener on the other side or are you just looking through rose tinted glasses? Right. Is there anything that you do to help reassure yourself in those moments where you are questioning like, oh, maybe. Maybe I should have stayed with that person or maybe I should be looking to get married or.

I think I remind myself that I make decisions that I feel are best for myself. I dated someone for. Like three and a half, almost four years, one of the best people I've ever met in my entire life. And when people ask me why it ended because nothing really happened, it just it ended. I broke up with him. And I think so many people watched it. And we're just like, what happened for the perfect couple?

And it was just that you were not in love with each other anymore. Like, I loved it, but we were not in love with each other and we needed to start growing on our own. And yet there are a lot of times now where I think back at this relationship I had in my I guess like late teens, early to mid twenties, and I'm thinking, why do you really cared about me so much? But then I just remember that I was holding myself back.

I was completely holding myself back. I wouldn't be the woman I am today if I see in that. And so I think I just remind myself that I make these decisions because I want to have the best life for myself and I. I wouldn't be me if I had. So it just kind of like checking in on yourself then. Yeah, I'm not I'm not being so hard on yourself. I guess I'm going at your own pace as well, which is important.

So sorry. We went off on a little bit of a tangent, but you were talking about the spontaneity of moving to Chicago. So is that because it's work or is it just because.

Because Chicago it's really just because Chicago. I did I did want that fresh start. It's like you said before, like, oh, you're just really going for I don't know anybody there really maybe a few coworkers that I'm not even necessarily met in person, but maybe like emails or phone calls. But I think it's just time for a fresh start, like maybe sitting down and checking in on myself. I feel like I, I haven't been doing that enough lately.

I feel like I've been living a lot of. Doing, doing, doing for others, whether it's in my career or just the people around me, and that's not like a woe is me, like I'm not I don't care enough about myself kind of thing, but it's and I and I love how I show up for people and how I show up at work, but I need to do the same for myself. And I think being here is allowing me to do that anymore.

So if I separate myself from this comfortable life that I have, maybe it'll force me to be a little bit more honest with myself about what I want and get that fresh start that I need. So part of it is about stepping outside comfort zones. Yeah, I think I have a little bit more growth than me. You think it's important to step outside your comfort zone? Yes, I think that that plays into some of the things I've already said that I wasn't a very comfortable, loving four year relationship and I could have stayed and I would have been like I would have been more content, at least like really for the rest of my life.

I probably would have been like this and had lived a very comfortable life. But I like who I am. Now, more than I liked the girl who was just kind of like skating by. Angela, a podcast, obviously, you don't know that. Yeah. Oh, right.

This conversation is great because we literally like walking our way through all that previous episodes and all the big topics that we've just got. So like we had a guest on one of my friends, Claire, and she and I talked a lot with Tom about moving to Canada, for example, and just wanting like a big fresh start to sort of like reset your own priorities in life and give yourself that chance to, like, step out of your comfort zone, step away from the things that you know, so that you can really focus on figuring out what it is you want to prioritize in your life, like where your values life.

And so I think a huge change in life can definitely do that for you. It doesn't mean that you didn't like the life that you had before that. But life moves on, right? And, you know, you need to move and grow with it so well.

I'm excited to see where you end up after this big old move to Chicago to too. I mean, can you imagine if I just moved to the Midwest and never come back?

Then people would be shocked by the way most people move to New York to come out of here.

So so how does a good point, like how has living in New York been, if you enjoyed it, like the pros and cons of being a human of New York?

Oh, that's. Prose, I guess. I mean, just like an amazing city, the excitement, the energy, it's it's amazing and there's so much to do and so much to explore. And I keep mentioning the prayer, but it's a great place to start building your career, if that's what you're interested in. And I think I just love this little family that I've created here. It's a group that used to be a group of like 15 of us.

And we were legitimately like best friends, like everyone. We just loved the hell out of each other. And a lot of us, it was about half of us were from college. I went to Paris in upstate New York, and we kind of filled out with like a few people from home and stuff like that and built this awesome family. And it's so cool to live in this little. So with all of your best friends in your 20s together, so that's that's been really great.

What I love most about New York is the people that I've come into contact with Konz is the excitement and the energy it's about. I think you forget to do the checking in on yourself, and it's very easy to get wrapped up in everything around you. So, yeah, I think I'm exhausted. I think that's kind of another reason for the fresh starts. I'm very tired. Just feel like I'm constantly doing something. And if you're not doing something, you have to find something to do.

You're rarely going to sit in your apartment on a Saturday night like that would be weird.

Oh yeah. I feel like I created that whole Cuomo thing for me.

When I lived in New Jersey, I was like, oh, who cares? I'm doing my own thing tonight. Maybe I'll have a few glasses of wine and watch Netflix or read two books. And I don't do that enough here. I'm constantly like, where's the party? He needs to go to dinner. Do I need to see today? Do I have to make like three dates back to back, not necessarily actual dates but like meetings with people.

Sometimes I have. But yeah, I think and personally those would be like the pros and cons, but especially now with the current environment. It's been so interesting. And I think those have had the positive and negative effects to especially Black Lives Matter being in the city, it was really amazing to see so many people come together and and want to show support and make a change, like silent protests in McCarren Park. That's a park that's right next to our apartment here in Brooklyn.

And everyone who just like come together, everyone was in masks to sit on the grass and be completely silent. And then eventually someone would see people make some speeches and like the marches and everything like that was just really amazing to see so many people come together and show how much they care, especially because I think when you think that East Coast mentality and people in the city, it's so easy to think that we are cold. I think it's I think that's something that people think a lot about people from New York City and to see so many people coming together really like caring and showing up.

That was amazing. But it was also scary. I think you didn't really know what was going to happen. Cities and so many people watch the news and. I think there's a lot of people back home are also worried about me, it was constantly calling are you safe or are you safe? But it was hard because when you watch something like Fox News and you're seeing these crazy out of control riots in New York City and then all of us here are like, that's not really the case.

I feel like they're replaying the same video over and over to to make you super scared. And that's not to say it didn't happen, but I think that it seemed so escalated at certain points where we were everyone was like, oh, my God, I saw Brooklyn. It's a mess. And we're like, the sun is shining and the man is still playing the violin in the park and the woman still rollerblading everywhere. I wasn't scared today. So what do you what happened on the news that I missed in my own home?

Like what's going on here? So I think that was something weird to navigate and to have to talk about with your family, too, especially if maybe you suddenly started seeing that you you don't see eye to eye with people in your in your life. So, yeah, it was a that was a lot to experience, but it it did. I love to everyone show up and come together who actually did care and wanted to make a change and so want to make a change there.

Of course we have the election too that's going to be in New York, but. When we found out that the president elect was Joe Biden. I haven't seen the city look like this in so long, like since before the pandemic, it was like we were normal for a day and it was like so cheesy. But I walked out the door. At first of all, I found out from Brooklyn that he had allegedly one is not technically there yet, but I found out from the cheering and the horns honking and everything like that in five seconds I was like, oh, my gosh, why?

Like, he did it, like I did it. And then it was everywhere. And people were just like they had their masks on. We could see the smiles and everyone was totally distanced. But like talking to each other, interacting, I just felt like that's not where we've been. Like we haven't been there for a little while now. So that was like one of the best days. And then. Yeah, I mean, just like seeing everyone kind of running around and on a stupid way.

But just like there was this new this new energy, this excitement and I think real hope and so. That was also great, but again, not seeing eye to eye with people. I do have friends that I know are Trump supporters and my friends that are very respectful about it. And I think that it has to do more with financials than it does with anything in a social capacity, because that I would never be friends with someone who has real heat in their heart for anyone, which I know doesn't even have to be someone's platform.

But when he gets entered into the chat room.

It's easy to kind of make it a polarizing topic of black and white, not in the literal sense, but yeah, but also, I guess, kind of in the literal sense in this case. But the events of a respectful and. Yeah, it's just been weird to navigate, especially with family, too, because I know that there are some supporters in my family, but it's just not it's not who I am. It's not what I believe in.

And we just try to find respectful ways to have the conversation or even not have the conversation at all if we can't be respectful about it. So. That's a good approach to have and I mean, it's a unique position that not everyone finds themselves in, but for those of us who do find themselves in a position where, you know, you have so much love for someone, especially if they are quite close to you, but you have such different beliefs about some of the core values that you hold dear in your life.

You can definitely make for some awkward and tense situations. And I guess respect is obviously the very first step. So just making sure that you remind each other always involve that you, no matter what you believe in, you will still love them no matter what. It's unconditional and it's termed unconditional love for a reason. But respect has to be the very first step. And if the. If the discussions continually turn into an argument at some point and respect is going to be lost, and so sometimes the easiest way is to just not have those conversations with those closest to you and have them with everyone else in an even wider circle that maybe you can have easier conversations with that's not there.

And then and then build on that. Yeah, definitely. Because, as you say, I don't think, you know, it's tough because I come from a place of hate for anything. It's just a completely different part of your life experience, current and in past experience, you know, different beliefs as to what is important and, you know, where their values lie. They can be slightly different. And no one's lived the exact same life. Right.

So you can't expect someone to have the exact same opinions, beliefs and values as you do.

Yeah. So was that something that you found with your family to anger that you've had a difference of opinion, political or otherwise, you know, with Trump and the US election? Yeah, definitely. And I think we had to, um, there was one there was one conversation. There wasn't like disrespect or hate in it. But I think there were two of us in this conversation. It was. I think it was. Last Christmas, maybe there's a small group of us together for the holidays, it typically is, and a lot of people in the room are Republicans and do support Trump again, at least in the financial aspect.

And then there were two of us who were not in support of Trump. And the conversation took that turn where two of us had to be like. It's fine if you believe in the financial aspect of it, if this is fiscal for you, OK, but our values are saying that the social aspect has to be more important than that. And I think we kind of laid out all these different things that we think just make him not a good leader.

And I think it was hard for them. To digest, because it's so easy for people to be innocent until proven guilty, all of those things, it's like, OK, well, if we want to put it in terms like that, like. Is a murderer, not a murderer, because he didn't get caught? Yeah, I don't understand and I'm not going to be a murderer, but I know it kind of became more explosive, an explosive conversation on Christmas, which I mean, alcohol definitely helps there.

I guess if you're so, there are a lot of drinking in my family.

So, like, turn up now.

Yeah, it definitely was more of an explosive proposition. And now as we move forward, we've been able to avoid that a bit more. And I think people understand at least where I'm coming from or that other individual was coming from. But yeah, sometimes, again, when alcohol is involved and you start having looser lips to be like something can be said that offend someone. And it keeps a little bit of an ugly turn. But I think we've been doing our best.

We try we love each other, as you said, do it's unconditional. So just because you don't always see eye to eye doesn't mean that I think you're a bad person. And maybe we just have different beliefs in this section of our lives. Exactly. That's one of the main reasons why I was keen to do this podcast, is because it kind of came off the back of the election here in the UK and people were just basically throwing each other.

No one was listening to anyone. There was no proper intellectual discourse or respect. And so I completely agree with all of those things. But it's important to have respect. Even when people don't agree with you. It's fine. They don't they don't you know, not all supporters of Trump or xenophobic or racist or anything like that. They have legitimate reasons because maybe they feel let down by Obama and the Democrats for legitimate reasons. But, um, what do you I mean, it's probably quite obvious, but what do you think of Trump's current conduct?

At this moment in time, so is pretty not his biggest fan, I don't even know myself in the category of the. Yeah, I just I don't even think that it has to be things that are super recent. It's everything. It's just like constant. And I'm always so tired of hearing the argument to it, like, oh, well, he just says it like it is like, no, he says it how it is for himself.

And I don't know why so many people. I don't know, put him on this pedestal of heat while he's so great because we have money and he does this and he made me money, great. I'm glad that our country is burning down right now. And you're just happy that. The stock market is doing OK for you today, so, yeah, I think. I won't get to overly political about something, exactly how I feel, but I think I've made it pretty clear so.

And so is Biden's. It looks like Biden is going to win and be the president elect. Does that give you hope for the future? Yeah, I think. It's almost like that idea of like the fresh start, and I guess you can't really necessarily have a fresh start after everything that's happened, but I'd like to believe that we can all try to take that step forward and start growing together and start trying to understand each other rather than constantly seeing someone with a different opinion and wanting to just eat them right off the bat.

I think it just touches on the idea of respect and wanting to grow as a country and do something that's going to benefit all of us vs. a select few. So I'm hoping that we can move toward a more loving and peaceful country because it hasn't felt that way in a long time. Are you also. Feeling that he's talked about the solidarity that you saw with Black Lives Matter in the people attending protests and things like that. Are you buoyed by that kind of solidarity, I guess, and people coming together in that way?

I mean. No, I would just rather have everyone be able to be more like me.

Come on. Good luck. I, I want us all to be able. To treat. Even those that we don't know, as someone that you don't need to know your life story or it's I guess it goes into your maybe your parents used to say, like, if you have nothing nice to say, you just don't say anything at all. And then and then other people, they treat the. Senator, what I think you just like everyone should be looking at each other with a level of respect and coming together and trying to work together before they decide that you need to prove something.

So I guess that's that's where I just want to I want the solidarity, I want everyone to come together and actually respect each other and try to understand. And it's like a conversation. You're not really having a conversation if you're talking, but you're not listening. And I think a lot of people don't understand that it's all about communication. You're not communicating because you can't hear what someone is saying and actually digest it. It's really not worth speaking if you are going to try to to understand what's coming out of someone else's mouth.

And I, I can't say I'm having conversations with people who sit there and you can tell they're thinking about what they want to say next rather than in what you are trying to tell them. And that's why there's so much miscommunication and so much hatred in the world, because even with Black Lives Matter or any other topic, you want to you wanted to make it so people are so quick to be like, oh, I hate cops or well, they're all criminals.

But like, no, that's not accurate. Systemic issues exist. But that doesn't mean that because a man or a woman is a cop, they're a bad person. I think there's been this, like, weird mentality. Let's just attack everyone as a whole rather than looking at people in an individual manner sometimes. And that's kind of ugly around here, too. Yeah, I would rather we just meet people and have healthy conversations. Listen, come together and if someone gives you a legitimate reason to not like them, then cut them out of your life for something different.

Don't need to like. That this mob mentality of freaking out and hating people when you don't know that group or anyone in that group. I mean, it makes sense, doesn't seem like you're asking for too much. You wouldn't think and so in the spirit of differences of opinions and respecting each other's choices, we you know, we have a bit of a difference of opinion. Is this a simplistic way? Yeah, yeah. This is one of Tom's brilliant Segway is that I'm just taking control of right now.

We have a bit of a difference of opinion, which is I mean, you're a great person to chat to anyway. But this is half the reason why I wanted to get on the podcast. And that is because Tom and I have talked a lot about how bullshit capitalism is and how we gave up our careers in the professional area.

We couldn't leave because I could not. Um, however, you have expressed to me many times in the few months that we've been chatting about you, for example.

Yeah. About your drive. Better drive to become the young V.P. at your company.

So maybe you want to talk a little bit about what it is you do for work and what it is you're hoping to take, where you're hoping to take your career. Yes, I will. I did listen to the episode, the episode number four, everyone before actually before I even jump into this is so embarrassing to to say out loud. But I have to tell you, because I thought I was miserable last night, I couldn't sleep. So I'm going to listen to it because I felt like I was kind of like working and listening in.

The background is like how they actually listening to what they're saying this time last night, I put it on and I must have gotten so tired at one point that I fell asleep.

So you don't have to be too polite about it.

We do that, too. Yeah. We've had this constructive criticism before.

You guys were talking and I mostly just finally got so tired I fell asleep. And your part has played all night in my sleep. I just listened to the two of you speak to me all night. I knew that's what I know, like you work your way into my dream, probably because, yeah, it was just your voice.

As I woke up, I hear his voice on episode episode 30.

So that was I mean, thanks to Alison numbers describing what kind of notification someone would just listen to.

So a lot of people not sure how great your ship is.

Yeah, that'll be a snippet of that snippet of social media if you have trouble sleeping.

We have been told our podcast can help better than melatonin and cheaper. But yes, I work in public relations. I am in the financial and professional services sector, my company. And so I do a lot with fintech. Your average financials and I work my ass off like I'm constantly working and you know that it's all the time, but I love it. I'm passionate about it. I I'm trying to think of exactly where I want to go here.

Yeah. So I do I want to be BP. I think by the time I'm trying to give myself a little bit of leniency and by the time I'm like thirty two, I would love to be BP. I think that I, I lose myself every day and that doesn't even have to be like other people at the company. And I show myself every day that I can do something new, which is awesome. Like you you get a task that maybe you think you're incapable of completing, and maybe that's like writing an article on artificial intelligence.

And I went from food to financial and professional services, which is a huge jump, obviously very, very different. And it was like week two. And they asked me to write this article and I was like, I don't know anything about that. It's like, how am I supposed to write this? And then I ended up doing an amazing job and I was like, OK. And that was like the moment where I was like, you can succeed here.

You can do this. You just have to you just have to try. You just have to do your research, not to learn. You have to grow. So, yeah, I guess as I continue working, I just kind of like realized that that's something I want. I think it would make me feel good about myself, but I think that's where the the difference of opinion might not be as different as you think.

We're should go see it for me.

It's not. Well, I can die in this conflict. He posted something on I took a screenshot. Oh, no. Are you all right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm afraid of Instagram's already blocking my account already because of the political pressure.

So this'll be great. Yeah. Everyone, Stewpot said we need to stop glamorizing overworking. I do sleep good. Diet, exercise, relaxation and time with friends and family isn't something to be applauded to any people where they're burned out as a badge of honor. And it needs to change. I don't think that this is wrong. I think that it's it can become a bit of a black and white issue for people. That, I think is a lot more gray.

I don't think that a lot of people who work all the time are trying to glamorize that or wearing out as a badge of honor. I think that if you're passionate about what you do and you're good at what you do and you have to put in that extra effort to do something for yourself that's fulfilling for yourself, but also feeling like you are helping others, which takes it back to Episode four. I think that's great, and I think you should be proud that you work so hard and that you're accomplishing things for yourself, even if that's just like a goal that you're setting for yourself.

This promotion I got. Not this past Monday, but the Monday before, you know, it is it's like I'm tired, I work all the time, I, I will jump in knowing that I have to work until eight p.m. and if I see someone three levels below me struggling and they're going to be on until 11:00, then I'm going to work until 10:00 to make sure that we can both sign off at 10:00 rather than then work until midnight.

And I don't think that that's. Glamorizing anything, I think I love that I show up for people and that I'm trying to help make a difference even when it's for corporate America. I think that's great and I should I should be proud of myself for working so hard and getting that promotion, and now I have one level between me and being a VP and I'm twenty six years old and it's going to be really nice when hopefully in my 30s, I'm able to kind of take that step back.

And I don't mess at this capacity. And I'm able to put focus on the things that we talked about before, which is hopefully getting married and having children. And I don't want to I don't want to be a working mom that. Feels like I have to put pause on family because I need to work to have food on the table for them. I don't want to compromise that part of my life for me. So I'd rather work my ass off now when I don't have ties to a hundred different things and I don't need to be the best partner for someone and I don't need to lose someone and be a good person, I, I'd rather be tired now and be able to put my focus on two things in the best way, and that's why.

I think it's OK to wear that burden as that badge of honor, because I work hard and I work so hard because I'm doing something for someone else and I'm doing something for myself. So, yeah, I don't I don't have to work until 11 every day, all the time. I don't have to work on Sundays, but I do because I don't want the twenty one year old who just started his or her career to feel up. They're going to have a mental breakdown because they have so much on their plate and nobody else is raising their hand.

And that's and that's not everybody. That's not. That's not what that. I think it was a tweet that you to put up there. I don't think that's what that is about and I don't think that every single person is burnt out because they're doing what I'm doing. I think there are people who just literally will. Know, sit at their job and it's all they have and it's all they want, and that's just what they're going to focus on.

And then they're like, oh, why don't I have other things? That's not me. So I wear it as a badge of honor because I think when I'm passionate about something and I know I'm helping other people and I set goals for myself and I'm reaching them and I'm going even higher than that, that's no good for me. I deserve to recognize myself and I like when others recognize me in that portion of my life to. Yeah, that's on the mark.

So the work, the work that you do is not something that you always wanted to get into. Is that something that you study towards and you feel like and it's good for yourself and good for society and things like that? Does it feel you? That's not easy, I'm. Sorry. Damn, I can't stop.

No, I actually went to school originally to be a high school English teacher, and that is what I wanted to do. I thought that would be. So cool to meet. Or or help people be passionate about and learning and talking. Opening their minds to other things I thought was great and and love teachers, this is this is not meant to be mean. I am so tired of so many girls doing the whole like, oh, my God, I want to be a second grade teacher.

It's just like, what about what about middle schoolers? What about high schoolers? Do you mean you want to be a professor one day and help someone achieve something great? It's not just I mean, elementary school teachers, your dope. I love you.

Some of my favorite teachers were in elementary school, but I don't think that I don't understand why at this school that had such a great teaching program, I was sitting in a classroom with surrounded by like 30 girls who all wanted to teach the same exact grade. And I'm like, what is the difference there at that point? Like. I just I guess I was just very confused about what they needed, and then I wasn't getting what I needed because my classes needed to be dedicated to.

The all of the girls in the one boy who is in my class, it was dedicated to elementary school. How are you helping me become a high school teacher? So you wanted to be a high school teacher? Yes, I wanted to sit down and have Socratic circles and talk about literature. I'm 16 years old, so it would be very interesting conversation. But yeah, that's what I wanted to do. And when I wasn't getting what I needed, I decided to figure out how I could.

You can bet a bit and figure out there is something else I could be passionate about. So I sat down, had a few conversations and came across public relations where I was going to be able to I was going to be able to read. I was going to be able to write. I was going to be able to talk. I was going to be able to help other people learn about things. And I was kind of like, wow, those were things that I wanted to do as a high school English teacher.

So maybe this is something I can put focus on. And I started looking at cited public relations and advertising. I think I just naturally felt closer into public relations. So that's what I decided to pursue. I started off with the food industry, so definitely not doing anything too crazy to make the change. I was representing representing peeps like the Easter candy. Oh, yeah. You know, little chicks. I used to used to represent them and it was so much fun.

It was great. They were amazed. I worked with so many amazing people. I got to go to like these fun little things, like something called the Peep Show, where it's like Lego people, they save and buy all these peeps and then they build life sized sculptures out of that. It was it was awesome. And so I went to this and someone made Belle from Beauty and the Beast out of. All of these people, and it was like the coolest culture, one of the coolest things that I've seen and be the new beauty and the beast is like coming out in like a week or two.

So I decided to pull together a pitch pitch to it, basically started to go viral. And I was like, that's so cool that I just did that. Like, I just did that. I sat there. I thought strategically, like, just do things together. And now everyone gets to see this awesome sculpture that this woman made. So that's where I started. And then I went into financial and professional services because I was just ready to make a change in terms of where I was.

And that was kind of linked to this new life I was creating for myself. I had just exited my relationship, decided I was going to move and I was going to kind of reinvent my career to know it was on a specific client that I still work on. And I was like, well, I don't know anything about this, but I'm going to try. And one of the women who interviewed me actually said that it was between me and another girl and the other girl was technically more qualified.

But they chose me because they felt like I was hungry for it. Like they were like this girl is going to like she wants this, like she cares about this. This is something that. So Zeltzer makes her happy if she wants that, she has the drive. So she chose me and I was like, that's awesome. Thanks for telling me that in private.

Oh, yeah, good takeaway. But yeah. So I just kind of kept growing there and, you know, I. It's easy when you're like, oh, I'm and then you're kind of like, what are you doing to help others? But I've worked on some really awesome programs and I've done a lot of work in creating a more inclusive future and working with the gig economy and figuring out ways that we can make things work for them and not have them be completely excluded from the economy, basically.

And then just like in other countries, we're encouraging young girls to go into STEM, which back to Episode four, we're talking about doctor is and that's part of STEM. But so many girls aren't pursuing that because they. They are encouraged the same way that boys are coming young age, so it's it's really cool to be able to work in these programs and encourage girls to go do something new. Try something new. Go to a doctor. A scientist like you don't have to be.

A second grade teacher, and that doesn't have it, and again, it's no hate, but I think I just it just feels concerned, like how many girls am I going to talk to? And that's that's their choice. Like, that's I was starting to wonder if I mean that way, too. I was like, teacher. And that's such a great profession, but then you get to a point where you're like, how come every girl I talk to wants to be a teacher?

That's but it's a little bit like being on a dating app and every girl just being in digital marketing or PR. Mm hmm. Yeah. The doors inside, you'll get the side of the government saying this doesn't pass. I also don't know yet still alive.

You've also answered all my questions before we can even get them to you.

Yeah, you're very good at just like a very rounded conversation, it's one sided, it is. It is not on all the points we wanted to ask you anyway and.

Well, I am in communications like every other girl in. Yeah, but yeah, so it's it is it's become. So filling it was something that. I love writing, I love communicating, I love being around people and this career to do all of that. And then when I moved into financial and professional services, I started being able to do things that I couldn't do in the food space. I could start helping on programs on. Announcements, different launches that that might actually benefit people who do need some kind of aid or do need to be included in the economy or do need that extra push because maybe in school there.

Chemistry teacher isn't turning to them and saying how amazing their product is in comparison to the man or the boy that they're sitting next to. It's been really cool. I've met a lot of interesting people and I think that is the feeling for me. And I think that's why I work so hard for it, because I'm like, you know, I do feel like I'm doing something and. It might not be, I don't know, as life changing as other people's careers might be, but I like it.

I like what I do. I'm happy with what I do. Yeah. And that's the most important thing I think I've I've ever said to summarise. While I joked about us having a big difference in that you're working really hard now and all of that, I mean, most of it's just all just the jokes and just a bit of entertainment on the podcast. But, you know, like our main difference is that I've sort of decided to live life now and sort of balance out long term that like I live.

More of my work balance now, and I'll be working for longer, you hoping to work harder now so that you can have. More of your life, I guess, in a few years time, and I don't think either approach is wrong. I mean, I've definitely had plenty of discussions and sometimes even arguments with friends about which ways which. And I think the only issue I see with your approach and when we go back to the screenshot of mine, that you are so brilliantly sad.

It's a it's only an issue if someone hasn't taken the time to sit down and figure out where their values lie and hasn't taken the time to figure out, like, why exactly they're in this area and also. Whether or not they're actually working for themselves or for other people, and it seems like you're definitely working so hard because you do care about other people and you're not doing it for the hustle, you know, hashtag Hustle Life. You're not doing it for yourself.

You're not doing it just to make money so that you can live in a mansion and, you know, in fact the rest of the society. I think that's also why you struggle so much to understand why people can support Trump when, you know, you can understand from a financial level what I might support Trump. But, you know, for you, exactly as you said, like so many other societal issues, need to play a part more so than your own selfish financial needs.

Right? Yeah. So I think that's that's the issue I have with the hustle after the Hustle Life. And, you know, when we talk about bullshit jobs, a lot of bullshit jobs are purely individual, selfish, sort of. Choice for a lot of people, but you've obviously taken the time to really reflect on where your values lie, what is valuable to you and what impact you can have on those around you.

Yeah, I mean, Tom, I told you that I work so hard so that he could I could take care of them.

And, yeah, I'm definitely of the handbag and my husband and mom can retire and travel.

And he was like, we're never going to be able to retire. I was like, OK, don't crush my dreams.

Why don't you like. That's the thing.

I just want to take care of my husband.

Yeah, well, that is a pessimistic outlook on. On whether or not people in that generation will be able to retire and. I mean, it's easy for me to say the research suggests, but I think like a lot of other people that are much smarter than I am have also. Also hold similar beliefs in that retirement, in what we think retirement is now isn't likely to be something that we're ever going to be able to achieve. Now, whether or not society gets around to figuring out socialism and whether or not we can actually support people, when I and robots end up taking pretty much all of our jobs and all of a sudden people are like, oh, shit, like my whole self identity is is completely dependent on this one particular job position that I've had for 30 years.

That's not a healthy way to live. And that was my other big issue with bullshit jobs. And obviously, Topanga, you're you're you're very OK with big life changes and pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. And it's not like you're tying your entire identity to this one pursuit to be paid by 30 to it's important to you. But I think even just the fact that you're willing to move cities not just for the career, but for yourself so that there's other things you value in life.

Yeah, and it's it is it's like that that was his goal. I'm not I don't want it to be my identity, but I think that it's great that I have certain characteristics like being driven and and actually caring about something like that's that's awesome. Like people like people to just see five sometimes. And I like those things about myself, but I'm allowing the school to be kind of like a little school. So it was like five thirty and then one day became my thirty one and one day it was thirty two because I'm not going to force myself to get here and be mad at myself if I don't get there in time.

That goes back to everything. I forced myself to have children at twenty nine if I'm not there yet. So I'm not going to put in age. That's like no definitive. This has to happen for me, but I think it's just something to reach for, something to, you know. Check in, I guess it gives you motivation, right, like having a goal, having a goal is motivating. So without that, then it makes it harder to get through those periods in time when you are working and you don't really want to you know, you have this thing like, oh, no, this is where I actually want to get to in life.

And that's that's obviously something I struggled a lot with because I don't have that definitive goal just yet. It's like I feel like I'm getting closer to figuring out what it is and where it is. I want to take my life. I mean, I've just got six more years until I'm allowed to retire because my wife's going to be able to support me.

But realistically, I have to figure out if I'm going to do for six more years.

Yeah, that's probably the goal that me got all rich. That's that's my goal for the last eight years, my back.

And then I will bet. Yeah. Can I.

So that must be, must be. That's why I work out so much, because my personality hasn't worked out. So I figure I might as well just like climb them with a good body until I can figure out my personality.

So talking about goals and have you sort of sat down to think about, like where, you know, the next 50 years takes you like, are you a long term planner or is sort of like maybe by 30 to a short term goal?

Enough of you right now. But. I don't think I'm planning super long term. I think it's pretty it's pretty short term, maybe more than 10 year capacity versus where I'm going to be in 20 years because I have no idea trying to take it step by step and get not put too much pressure on myself, because I, I tend to do that a lot. So I try to make sure I'm not stressing myself out with too much in the future.

And that goes into like I think it's great that you are living more now than doing what I sometimes do, which is. Future, future, future, but I'm trying to get myself to be a little bit more like that, so I think I'm just trying to keep it a little more condensed right now and balance. I said, yeah, you you said earlier that if you were to get to VPE, it would allow you to step back and perhaps, like work on things that you would want to want to work on or dedicate your time to.

What kinds of things are they? I think that is it is the the family aspect. I grew up in a home where I think I didn't I didn't get what I hope to get. And so it would be really nice if I was able to to be there and be present and not feel like I have to work those crazy hours and then, you know. Not show up to my. Play not be able to take them to the park or things like that, because I feel like it sounds kind of silly when you say it out loud, but it matters to me.

I also know the importance that I'm I'm present. And I think that because I care about my career and because that's what I really have right now, it's where I put so much focus and I forget to do. I forget to focus on myself. I forget to do things for myself, but I don't want to forget to do things for the people I love. And so it's important to me that I'm able to kind of step back at a certain age and and put more energy into something that will be even more fulfilling to me than a career.

So so when you get to the higher echelons of the company, so to speak, it becomes the case that you can work less.

Hopefully, is that optimistic or naive?

I think it's very depending on the person, because I definitely work with some people who are like very high up and working a time. And and then I get a little scared and I'm like, oh, this is this forever is is actually forever. But my company does have, like, really great lenience, I would say, in terms of like making sure that especially even in this pandemic, if you are a working parent, you have your kids and maybe they're not going to school right now, maybe they are.

But it looks really different making sure you can flex your time, like maybe you're logged off for a year, logged off in like three to seven, but you put the kids to bed and have dinner and then you log back on for a little while. It's still and that's still a really fucking long day to even imagine taking care of your kids, locking now, please. But I think that I definitely work with people who have found flexibility, and that's about holding yourself accountable.

And that's something that I'm going to have to do to learn is. It's prioritizing and making sure you're doing what's important to you. And what I don't know, I'm focusing on what's most important to you. And so, of course, if you have a human being into this world, I would hope that you would decide to shut your computer if you needed to walk away and walk back at a better time. I guess to really answer your question, I'm not sure I'm not sure what the future looks like when you get super high up, because I see people work tirelessly and I see people trying to do the it's five by tomorrow at nine.

Yeah, I mean, hopefully, hopefully the workplaces, especially after hopefully this pandemic, people will realize that flex time and, you know, more flexible working arrangements is actually a good thing. I don't have a lot of hope of saying quite a lot of articles, especially just recently talking about the stealing of time being the the worst thing to come from this current virus pandemic. And Tom and I talk a lot about how much we hate the whole concept of, like, businesses own hours of your life as opposed to your output.

Like, I focus so much on like how many hours you actually doing at your desk? More so than like, hey, did I get the work done? Cool. Isn't that enough? Like, why do I have to be here? Why do I have to be present all the time when I'm still getting my shit done?

So yeah. And that's the relevant in my career because I'm at an agency so refillable and I have to hit this amount of time up. You have to or you're going to get notifications one hundred thousand times a day that you don't have your time entered and then you have to build the client. So it's it's a whole thing. I mean, I wish I could just do the work, and that's where I'm like, OK, I've worked so much.

Can I please I. Yeah, well, that's also what you talk about.

That issue is the link between productivity and wages as well. So whilst productivity has gone up and up and up and up, wages have kind of just stuck out basically. Yeah. Which is which is what we say we'd like, you know, the very many criticisms that you and I throw capitalism and things like that. But I think they are warranted because it seems to me that you were very nice in that you do help out your colleagues who need the help if they are going to be in a position where they're going to be working until 11 and you see that you foresee that and then get involved.

I think that can be quite a rare thing in a corporate environment. Yeah, it's I don't know if it's something that I've come across personally before and maybe that that's just who you are as a person.

But I'm a sponge, like I. I think I just like in everyone else's energy and emotions and it causes me to panic.

That's healthy. Yeah. Well, there are. It's just like I just I get concerned because I know that I've gotten myself in a really, really bad place before, like really, really bad, I actually got to the point where I was getting so stressed out with like with work that I started having gadding reflexes kick in. And I would find that I would get so really stressed I would start to gag and then I would end up passing out eventually.

And that's when I started realizing there is an actual issue. And I see these these kids come in from college and they're ready to start their career. And I'm like, oh my God, please don't be me. Like, don't do that to yourself. Like, don't even allow yourself to even get close to that. So now I feel like now that I have that a bit more under control, I can I can take a deep breath. I feel like I'm getting to a point where I'm able to call the shots a little bit more and maybe that gives us a little bit more flexibility in terms of a deadline or having a conversation with a client where we can push back a little bit if we absolutely need to.

And because there's that I have some more management there. I don't want to see the twenty one year old get the gag reflex and pass out at their computer. So maybe not everyone approaches it like that. But I'd rather have a team mentality of like, let's help each other, let's do all hands on deck if we need to, because if we all have to work till eight, I'd rather we all work until eight instead of this town coordinator being logged on until one o'clock in the morning and then signing on again at 7:00 because they don't feel like their workload is manageable, like that's awful.

And sometimes you can't you can't add another person to the team. It's very dependent on on money. So I just I don't want anyone to get another criticism of.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. It sounds like you're definitely on a path to figuring things out. Maybe I'm trying to trying to change things from within, as it were. Yeah, that's what that's what I was going to say, because, like what you're doing, that effectively is a form of solidarity and helping someone else with their work. I mean, you know, the gag reflex is in favor that due to work is it should not happen. I don't think you should not be feeling like that.

And but, you know, certainly taking that experience in life turned into a way of helping people, I think is is a form of solidarity in a way, rather than being atomized and going, oh, that's nothing to do with the weather, which is what people can do. You know, it's often like a rat race. It's described as especially if you go in for positions such as yourself, like VPI and something like, you know, dog eat dog, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, I think the way that I work in a way that I show up to has made me this like. Hot commodity of people wanting me to be their manager and I'm like, what's going on?

Would you do this again? You're going to drink five glasses of wine today, like literally like this. I'm asking you. I'm like I'm that person who's, like, constantly showing up and being like, please sign up, please. It's seven o'clock. You sign off, let's go have a glass of wine and decompress. Come back tomorrow. There's nothing else you need to hand to me today. So please like that. And then I'll sit there and you don't take your own advice.


Maybe listen to the jobs website and just allow other sites like this bullishly it to us every night and then maybe, you know, it'll get you on in a month and you'll be like, all right, I'm done a completely different person now.

Yeah, but I did I just, you know, manager, I'm like super excited about it. I don't know how good of a minute I'm going to be, but I'm going to try to do this.

So is that a mug with your name on it? Oh, yeah, it's from one of the weddings I was in. Oh, OK. Is that your manager, Mark? Yeah, just reminding everyone who it is. Just a little subconscience like this is me.

You guys. It's me. What do you think makes a good manager?

Well, my response was that I have no idea and that I'm I'm pretty unmanageable and like every manager I've ever had has been. Has been able to be hands off. I don't need them to check in and ask me if I'm going to get things done or ask me questions about my workload, because I'm just an open book. So if I have a problem with something, I'm probably just going to come to you and tell you what the problem is or deal with the person that I need to deal with.

I've actually I needed to have a new manager because someone or my manager was going out on that leave and I literally turned to the person and went, hey, can you give me my manager? It doesn't require anything. We don't need to speak. I just need a name down on paper. Is that how you're starting to.

Just the name Dounia just came out of my back and my own husband, but it would be nice to have a pretty face to look at sometimes that is in my.

Yeah, I feel like yeah, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, but that's that's exactly I. I think the best thing that I can do right now is be open and just make sure that the communication line is there. And I keep going to him and being like, let's have a standing meeting on Fridays because this is new for me too. So let's you like every Friday we're going to sit down for 30 minutes. He's over Skype. Talk to me about your workload, tell me if you're overwhelmed.

This is new, this this industry is new to you. So acknowledge what you don't know, what you don't know and tell me about it and we'll try to work together to figure it out. Tell me two things that you want to work on or work toward, and let's think strategically on how we can get you there. And then I've also just been saying to him. To come, this is so weird. I'm like, can you please come to me with notes on how or thoughts on how I can be a better manager for you?

What do you need for me that I'm not giving you? Am I am I being too overbearing? Do you just do not want to talk to me as much like do you need me to like. Walk away for a few minutes, or do you need another meeting? Do you need me to talk to people for you? Do you need me to sit down? And have you sent me a list of your priorities for the week and we can talk through it.

Just tell me what you need, and I am going to work to do that for you. And I was considering it just started. I was like, this is still this is the early stage for both of us. So I can probably. Mold myself into that manager for you, and I hate for us to be six months in and you're like this thing you've been doing since day one. It doesn't work for me, OK? I'm just telling you, that day, like, I can't work like this, can we?

Can you figure out a different way to do this? So I'm trying.

So basically, it just sounds like really what you're looking to do is empower them to make them feel like they have some sort of control over, you know, the work and the way they do their work. But then you're also there to support them when they need it. And and building on that support, then I guess you're asking for feedback and then actually actively acting on that feedback.

And I think. In a lot of businesses, one, they miss out on the empowerment portion of being a manager like that is what actually makes someone a good manager, is that they they tailor their experience and their management style to everyone in that team because not everyone like you can't just use a cookie cutter approach to make it right.

And for a lot of people now, like they want to feel like they have some sort of control over their own work and the way they work. And then the other piece that a lot of people miss is that they they make these meetings and they they ask for feedback and, you know, they like, how can we help you? But then they don't actually act on that feedback.

So. I also think it can be daunting going into a fintech space when you you don't have a lot of knowledge there. And it funny enough, we actually went from food as an intern to check.

So he's basically a mini me.

I'm just going to make him into the lot of but. I mean, it's okay now I, I, I've been trying to be honest with him about the fact that he doesn't have to know everything and I don't expect him to know everything that I'd rather you just ask questions or it's to me if he's confused on something and then I just submit it to him. I was like, oh, he brought something up to me in our last meeting. And I was like, oh, fake it till you make it sometimes.

Like, it might seem like I know a lot, but I Google search things a lot and read articles and then form some kind of an opinion or or so I was like, we're all doing it. Yeah, it's really OK. But that is a big step for a lot of people too.

Is that like admitting that they don't know something and it goes back to that support base, like knowing that you're going to be supported if you come out and say, like, hey, I don't actually know this, like, can I get some help? I think in a lot of workplaces, I especially found that in my own work all those years ago.

Now that I think about it, you know, for some managers and for most of the workplace, I mean, I got lucky that I had some of the best managers in the whole place. But for a lot of people, they couldn't come out and admit that they didn't know something and therefore they would just push ahead hoping for the best. And then when the mistake came out, they got punished for making that mistake. And they only made that mistake because they didn't feel like they didn't want to come forward and help when they needed it.

Yeah, I, I keep trying to appeal to everyone that's below me or at my level or above me. It's really that communication aspect of being like this is an open, safe environment. Like he's just like come to me because it also allows me and this is going to sound kind of like an example to me, but I'm going to be really pissed off. If you didn't tell me that you didn't know something, wasted the client's budget, wasted your time, wasted my time and created even more work for myself when I'm already working these crazy hours.

So if I tell you that this is an open environment and we talk about everything and then randomly, one day you decided you just couldn't ask me a question and totally messed up. That's what I'm going to be pissed. And I am not an angry person. It's just like. I'm something of an angry person. Yeah, yeah, I'm pissed off, but I'm not angry. Yeah, yeah, I'm just disappointed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well yeah, hopefully people will just be happy. I, I think you are right, but I don't think it's important. I think you can often go into like huge corporations. Look at the structure and see the management, and you think that the experts and everything, but sometimes they don't even know what they're talking about, even governments like we've just we've seen everywhere all over the place, the people who are in positions of authority and things like that just seem to be going, you know, making things up as they go along.

So I think it's a unique it is a good you know, it's a good lesson to take from this episode.

As long as long as you're OK with asking for help, when you actually need it, make it to make it as dangerous when you just keep faking it, hoping to make it.

And then all you're the president of the United States, you know. Yeah, good point. Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of the caveat that you ask for help because you need that scale.

And on that note, I think we should wrap things up, although I'm sure we could keep talking for a very long time.

I have a feeling we'll probably get you on the side again as long as I don't do anything to screw up this beautiful thing that we have going on here. Yeah, he has a podcast to talk about. He hasn't been doing a great job, you know, out.

Well, well, I hope that you will come back on and tell us how you will move to Chicago goes and how you're settling in. And my dog and it's been great to meet you. I would love to have you come back on the podcast. Thank you.

So nice meeting you. And our first date. Sarah loved it.

I'm glad that we did this with all of these people listening. I hope if we ever meet in real life, that time is also that you say that it's just not right.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But I know I am so very proud of you and everything you achieved. I had to say that obviously I see that almost every day. And thanks very much for all of the amazing chats that we've been having, and especially this with last hour and a half. I think anyone listening to this episode hopefully is learning a lot. And you've definitely had a very different experience to that that Tom and I have had. And I know there's a whole bunch more about your life that we want to talk about, but I feel like an hour and a half, it's probably a good amount of time for someone about to fall asleep to listen to people talk.

So that if anyone has any questions, comments, concerns, suggestions, compliments for either Tom, myself or Topanga, please send us an email high at Tomsula new dot com. You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter at Thomastown. You and we have an amazing guest, hopefully coming up next episode. It was supposed to be last week, but her kid got sick. So that's not ideal. But that's, you know, the risk of Iran getting Gessen's first.

Yeah, as you say, we are faking it till we make it so. So far, there's a lot of faking it and much making it.

But we'll get that. We'll get that for you to ask for help to figure it all out again. All right. Well, thank you all.