To talk about violence against women, with invited back onto the podcast the amazing Kaley Ames for Episode #45. Continuing on from last episode’s chat about toxic masculinity, we explore the experience of women & the increased violence they face throughout their lives which can go largely unknown to the men around them. This isn’t a topic we think should be left for women to suffer silently, and so as usual, we think this is an incredibly important conversation to have.
Some of the topics we cover in this episode:
- the case of Sarah Everard
- the State responsibility to better protect women & vulnerable communities
- effect of COVID-19 on domestic violence
- toxic masculinity & the impact that has on women
- the Patriarchy & women
- impact of culture & media
- getting men to care
We want to thank Kaley for her insightful conversation, providing a unique perspective on an issue Tom & I don’t have first-hand experience with. It’s through conversations such as this, that we can continue to open minds to the realities faced by our friends & family. By sharing stories of difficulties & moments of vulnerability, we can turn our sympathy into empathy and hopefully bring about the societal change that is so desperately needed.
Like us on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter and Instagram @tomstuandyou or send us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org with any questions, comments, thoughts, or queries you have on the topics we’ve discussed or any suggestions of topics you’d like to hear us address.
Thanks so much for your support!
Hello, hello, everyone, I need to with you, welcome to The View and you do a fine job.
And so here we are, welcome to your own party.
I think it was brilliant. Thanks for introducing the podcast and thank you for coming back on again, because this is the second time of year that you’ve been on the podcast. How have you been since last time?
My pleasure. Oh, I’ve been great. I just been in this little thing called a global pandemic, so we’ll just get right on that because everyone is experiencing the same or a pandemic bad that I am.
But no, to be serious. I’m doing great and I’m really excited to be here. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
Oh, good. Just the same really. I’m sure that everyone’s got that pandemic fatigue and looking for a way out and hopefully we’ll have that soon, you know, notwithstanding the new virus that hopefully it won’t cause too much disruption. But yeah, we have a road map here in the UK and hopefully we can start to ease things and start to see people, see family and get back to some some level of normality. I guess that’s how things are here in the UK.
And let’s return back to normal so we can, you know, fix them set like our what we’re talking about today, I’m really excited you guys are the end for this episode. It’s a topic that is really important to me, as I’m sure you know, as it is to you. And I’m really stoked to. Both the men and, you know, establish some timelines and understand it. Thanks for having me on here today.
Of course. Yeah. I mean, we always like to get you one for the easy topic to talk about. You know, the easy topic that doesn’t remember Kelly Goins, one of our amazing friends there, to discuss feminism and how we can get men to care about feminism and why they should even care about it. And along the same vein of that and a continuation of our last episode on Toxic masculinity, we thought, why not have a chat about violence against women and how that’s perpetuated, how society toxic masculinity influences the impacts of that.
And again, why should men how do we get men to care about what is being perpetuated throughout society and how do we make a change? How do we actually improve it? Because we don’t want to go back to normal, as it were before. We want to go back to a much, much better normal. And hopefully this is just one very small part of that. Absolutely. I think that this is an important conversation to have. And I know it’s something that you and I really want to discuss in light of what happened in the UK recently, which has been a catalyst for this sort of conversation and the catalyst for a movement over here really.
And so the beginning of March of this month and a girl named Sarah Evrard was killed and just walking from a friend’s house in London. And it turns out and a man has been charged with murder and kidnapping.
He is a metropolitan police officer and unsubtly her remains were found on the 10th of March as well.
And, you know, when I first heard of this and I couldn’t believe it, really, you know, it could have been my sister, my mom and know friends, the partner. And so so it really hit home to me quite, quite harshly. And it could have it could have happened even before that, you know. What so many women, victims of violence and killed every week, but it’s good that this this one is having a moment.
This is a kind of moment and we need to talk about it. And just before we move on, I guess, you know, all our thoughts, solidarity, condolence condolences are with, you know, her friends and family and of every woman who is a girl who is facing violence in many of the manifestations, that violence arises. You know, it’s not always just physical. You know, it can be mental and economic as well, which can forces into force and into those kinds of scenarios.
And so thank you for coming on to help us discuss this. We think it’s super important and I can’t thank you enough for coming on. In your experience and from what you’ve research for doing this episode, what you know, what is the scale of the problem that we’re dealing with here? Yeah, I mean, thank you, the skills enormous and to give some people a little bit of context for that. What brings me to this subject, I did my master’s in interdisciplinary studies at York University here in Toronto.
My research focused on mothers who killed their children. And I look at modern representations of mothers and kill their children in theatre using adaptations of Euripides as media and, you know, modern legal, criminal legal cases where women have killed their children. And so that’s quite an extreme example of what I was researching. But my focus really research, my research really focused on the intersections of gender violence, the law and culture. So when it comes to topics like this, you know, I have experienced in kind of like looking at these things from like a very wide angle lens.
And, you know, when it came to Sarah’s murder, what was really striking about it is that, you know, this is a kind of violence that happens very frequently to all sorts of women and minorities. But here in this conversation, we’re going to talk about women, mainly focused about women, but. Her murderer and attacker, because he did, from what we understand, refer her attacker was a police officer. And so what really, Sarah is a blonde Caucasian.
She’s a white, blue eyed woman who’s thirty three years old, educated, from what we understand, middle to upper class. And she did everything that she was, quote unquote, supposed to do to keep herself safe in public. Globally speaking, London as a jurisdiction is the most surveilled place in the entire world. It is covered by a closed circuit television network that has individuals roaming the streets, completely surveilled from the moment that they leave their home to the moment that they step into another private domain.
So the fact that Sarah was missing for seven, almost 10 days, I think seven days, maybe 10, is extraordinary and quite unusual for many jurisdictions and large urban centers, but particularly for London. And the other thing that was seemingly unusual is the fact that her murderer or her alleged murderer, because he is a Ross Video, he’s on trial, he hasn’t been convicted yet, is a police officer. So what does this mean? Like, why is this surprising?
We know in recent history, as recent as last year with the murder of George George Floyd in the United States, that, you know, police are under a microscope. Police as an institution are under a larger microscope. You know, when it comes to violence against people of color, particularly men of color in the United States, you know, people with sexual and gender identity differences that do not fall on the binary. So non binary folks and trans people.
But what’s really shocking about seemingly shocking about serial murder is that, you know, she is the demographic that police are supposed to be protecting white. Blond hair, blue eyed, educated white women of a certain class, and even she wasn’t safe. And so what this really brings home is that, you know, as a writer, Charlotte fan, she wrote this incredible essay. She writes and I quote. The state is the single biggest threat to women’s health and safety, it administers violence directly through policing and incarceration and indirectly through relentless deprivation and oppression that maintain a regime of individual loans against women that keep women underpaid and isolated, dependent on male partnership for state surveillance to access resources.
So what is this? I mean, I could have called it. I could have put that into my own words. But what I really think is so powerful. About what Sheremet wrote is that it’s the state, because what we often do and I promise I’ll wrap up here in a second, but what we often do and what happened in the wake of Sarah’s murder is women started sharing online. So ways in which they feel unsafe in public, they hold their tears between their fingers.
When they’re walking home, they cross to the other side of the street when a man is walking behind them in a way to, you know. Underscore what is essentially. Gender war is the men against women, but what, Charlotte? So brilliantly writes in her essay, I maybe you guys put in the show notes, we’ll send it to you after. Is that is not necessarily a gender war, it’s a war between the individual and the state and it’s something that the state really needs to manage, because until men feel and understand that there are state sanctioned consequences for their violence against women, nothing is going to change.
Welcome to my. So that is what I know in my research. Looking at their 28th and what makes this different, why is the conversation different now? And 20 21 previously it used to be. Now, let’s take this as an opportunity to tell men why they should care about individual women’s safety. What’s different now is more people are coming to accept and talk about the fact that it really is a state responsibility. And we can talk more about that.
What do you guys think about all that?
I personally am really glad that you brought up the issue of the state. I think that’s really important. I think that Tom loves because one of the things that has happened since the Cyra Abroad thing, I mean, it was in the works before, but certainly since the fraud case happened, is that there’s been a push for a lot more authoritarian laws to come into effect, which attack the right to protest. No.
One, you can you know, under this new proposed legislation, you can face prosecution, face jail time for causing a, quote, serious annoyance. And I was serious annoyances. And, you know, I don’t know what that is. That could be anything to whom as well.
You can get more time for defacing a statue ten years than you do get for rape.
So it’s just again, it’s the prioritizing of private property over violence against women. Again, clearly. And I think what was really important in all the things that you brought was the intersectionality with race as well. I’d be remiss to not bring up the case of meanest mom and his daughters were murdered last summer and and that a black ethnic origin and police officers who attended who attended their bodies thought that they were safe enough to take selfies with the dead bodies.
And and it just shows the impunity that they think that they can act with. And she said that, quote, If ever we need an example of how toxic it has become, those police officers felt so safe, so untouchable that they felt that they could take photographs of dead black girls and send them on. And that show is a problem, is the site and with the St.. And especially because it was last summer that, you know, that would have been during the time of Black Lives Matter.
And then again, those girls were murdered by a man as well. And do you think that the state is such a problem? Because if you think about it in terms of history and you and I spoke about history being so important still and to inform, you know, the day, you know, the ramifications of slavery still ripple through to this day.
You know, women in the UK only achieved suffrage a hundred years ago. You know, in the United States, they only achieved the right to make decisions about their own bodies and like the 70s and things like that.
Do you think that the state is you know, it’s made by men for men, and that’s why there’s this violence perpetuated against women? Yeah, one hundred percent, I mean, I think so. Speaking about history, you know, kind of doing a bit of digging here in Canada, I mean, so much of our culture, our global culture is informed by what happens in the United States. Certainly here in Canada, we have a bit you know, we have our own history, but it’s kind of based, you know, looking at domestic violence is what, you know, the trends of what was happening in the United States.
And, you know, so like everything in America, terrible that happens. You know, its roots can be found in Puritanism. And, you know, so kind of the beginning of the sixteen hundred sixteen hundred, sixteen forty in the Massachusetts colony, domestic violence, well, spousal abuse was illegal. The Puritans, they relied heavily on community policing to regulate violence in the home. So that is, you know, kind of a starting point. But I kind of I skipped over a couple of hundred years then to the eighteen hundreds where the temperance movement started to gain popularity in the United States.
And the tendency then was really led by women who were trying to curb spousal abuse and domestic violence. They wanted their husbands to stop drinking and bringing this violence to their home. The temperance movement, it had a bit of a stay in the United States and it stopped because of World War One. And they needed the alcohol tax revenue in order to fund the war. So the temperance movement dropped off. But then, you know, the seventies, nineteen seventy six in particular, is a very big year in the United States for discussions on domestic violence.
The very first book published on domestic violence called Battered Wives by Del Martin is published in 1970, said Mad Magazine, which was edited by the head editor Ed in his book, famously, Gloria Steinem, one of their first publications. And did they ever put out a book called Battered Wives? Back then, the magazine, it was larger than the Standard Size, a magazine that we have today. And it was a picture of a woman on the cover, a single white woman with a black eye battered wives.
It was it part like an international competition, needless to say, national conversation on women, women, sorry, male violence against women in the home. And so now said, yeah, was a very big year. And in the 70s and leading up to the eighties, you know, this is when people, individuals started becoming aware of it, but there was no state intervention. And what should have happened is that the social the public social system should have been created.
Organisations created a network for women. But instead, what happened? It was individuals who created like a patchwork system and academics as well. We started talking about it created a patchwork system to, you know, create a social safety net for women who are being abused in the home. And that’s still what exists today. And so it’s been like a long 50 years. And we’re now realising that, like, it’s not enough, because as long as men are legislating, as long as men are police, then it’s not going to change.
And so, yeah, that’s my long answer to that.
That’s great. Yeah, we live longer and it is an important topic. Yeah. I think, you know, in terms of domestic abuse, it’s a huge problem here in the UK as well. You know, just the scale of violence against women when you look into these statistics is it’s harrowing really. You know, not if women aged between 18 and 24 had experienced sexual harassment, 80 percent of women overall, you know, all of a sudden there’s age ranges.
Two women are killed every week in the UK by a current partner or former partner. Women don’t feel safe too often to go to the police. This, you know, brilliant work by an investigative journalist called Alexandra Hill. It shows that the rates of domestic violence within the police force is higher than the, you know, the population and that there’s often a sort of like that type of mentality with the police kind of thing, and they don’t investigate it.
That could have been what happened with this way Ann Makosinski. As well in the Everett case, because he was reported for indecent exposure three days before Sarah went missing, and that wasn’t, you know, taking off or anything like that and. So, yeah, you know, just the scale of the problem is so bad and also the effect that the pandemic might be having on, you know, domestic violence, when people are forced together, you know, they can’t meet with friends or confide in friends.
And, you know, women’s work has been disproportionately affected by the pandemic in terms of job losses and things like that, which which, again, forces then in another kind of violence and economic violence into the pockets of their partners and things like that because they don’t have the means to escape. And that is happening at the same time that funding for refuges and things like that. And when these charities is being cut and slashed and affected. And and so to me here, there seems to be low.
If you look at if you take a step back and look at the statistics and look at the big picture of what’s going on historically. And it’s really hard to come up with solutions. And I don’t think the solution, as is being propounded in the U.K. at the moment, is more police officers.
No. Yes, absolutely right. And I’m really glad that you brought up the how the pandemic, how this intersects with a pandemic, you know, it was one of the first things that people started talking about when the stay at home orders started. It was like, holy shit, what are we going to do now about people who experience violence in the home, where violence where the home is not a safe place? And everyone was like, well, we know it’s a problem, but we can’t do anything about it because we literally have no we have no institutional structure around it and mental health and all of that, you know, also got folded into it.
But the idea of domestic violence and violence in the home was like at the top of people’s minds. They were like, I am so complicated. We can’t we can’t deal with it. But, yeah, certainly like it is a problem that we’ve known for a very long time. And this is, you know, when it comes down to interpersonal responsibility. I shrug for the for the listener at home, you can’t see, but I shrug, you know, that’s not really a solution either, because when it comes to Toxic masculinity and we say, OK, men need to hold other men accountable.
What does that look like, right, that interpersonal accountability often looks like shame if it’s public shaming and it can be, you know, no matter how gentle the shaming is, like, hey, man, don’t say that you’re making her uncomfortable in a in a structure of like Toxic masculinity, that is enough to elicit a punch. You know, it’s enough to elicit a reaction that isn’t, you know, what men say. You’re totally right.
I should stop harassing this girl. And so that isn’t really an answer either. And so we have to go one above our interpersonal solutions. And those are the ones that are, Zeeshan, because, again, like what I said, you know, my first answer is like, until men feel and know that there are eight. And consequences for the violence then against women, it’s just not going to change. Yeah, I don’t know how you guys feel about that.
I don’t know much in terms of I would almost take it a step further. So I was reading this excellent article in The New Statesman, and I’m just going to quote that one of the last couple of sentences of one of the paragraphs, and it says, There has to be something more than tough sentencing to keep us safe, although obviously we’re not even there yet. So tough sentencing first and then and interpersonal as well. But I think as a society and this is where the next point comes in, it’s as if the only reason a man does not hit you is that he does not want to be imprisoned.
He will just find another way to hate and abuse. And so the hate has to end somehow and perhaps how sentencing can only come with a real rather than superficial recognition that women matter. And I think that’s the key point there, is that it’s not even just interpersonal shaming, which, you know, might work some of the time. And that’s only if you put the onus on individual men to call out the small circle of men they have in their circle of influence, for example.
And then tough sentencing laws also stop a few more people.
But until until we have like as close to true gender equality as we can possibly get to, where it’s not just individual men trying to shame their friends, but all of society standing together to say, hey, this behavior isn’t OK. Sentencing alone isn’t going to work. We need to we need to go that that further step. And and that’s where it starts to get complicated in that it’s all of these issues are unrelated. And so when someone says we can’t possibly just fix domestic violence by this one small little thing, like, no, we can’t, it’s it’s all connected.
And there’s a reason why we have a discussion on a podcast about Toxic masculinity one week we discuss feminism, you know, a few months earlier, and now we’re talking about violence against women. Like all of these things are connected. And it has to be a holistic approach to end this. You can’t just look at things in isolation, and I think that’s what people are trying to do. They’re trying to look at things in isolation and say, oh, well, it’s almost too hard.
This isn’t going to work for X, X, Y, Z reason. I mean, if the government comes out and says, oh, we’re just going to create a new miniaturisation that says, you know, her job description is the. Reduce the impact of domestic violence like that, that also isn’t good enough, that’s almost virtual signaling on the behalf of the government because that one job title isn’t enough to end discrimination against women no matter what you put in a job description.
You’re also also on that point. Sometimes the sentencing that I put forward in legislation is just virtue signalling because hardly any of it ends up in convictions. I think the convictions for rape in the UK is less than three percent of reported cases. So in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, the UK police recorded fifty three thousand one hundred and thirty rapes, and of those, one thousand four hundred thirty nine were convicted. It creates a culture where it’s almost like you’re going to get away with it as well.
So I think you’re totally right to say that, you know, there needs to be, you know, the sentencing there that is a deterrent to this kind of behaviour. But it is a case of having a holistic approach and, you know, bringing in education and bringing bringing in personal responsibility and accountability and, you know, being an ally with women. And, you know, I agree with the whole silence is complicity type thing. And when the after the vigil and the hashtag reclaim the streets and things like that, which had echoes of, you know, reclaim the night and things like that in the 70s, I think it was and there was a hashtag like not all men.
And I was like, why is that? It sounded a lot like all lives matter is what it sounded like. It was just so dumb. Yeah. And but does that kind of does that kind of mentality that needs to be and that does come from toxic masculinity. So that’s why, you know, I’d encourage people to listen to that sort of stuff. So I think men and because of the culture and because of the fact that society is created by men for men and it’s hierarchical in its structure, you know, super competitive in terms of, you know, you know, that’s what capitalism is all about and that it creates this situation whereby men can’t feel, you know, vulnerable and speak to people and speak to whoever friends, whatever.
So then the only way that they can express themselves is through violence in the end. And that needs to be broken down.
And how do we break that down? Through education, obviously through, you know, deterrents and sentences and things like that. But that’s what we really need to figure out, is how to end toxic masculinity YSC with. Yeah, I’m yeah, I’m so glad you both brought that up. I mean, I think one thing that does get lost in the conversation is like what type of people for other people? And it is often most often people who are hurt.
And so one of like the you know, there’s been a lot of research on domestic violence, not on OK. Take it back now. Not domestic violence on men who beat their wives in the home. There has been a lot of research done since the 1970s now a little bit before the 1970s on what constitutes the type of person. And, you know, it comes back to intergenerational trauma and intergenerational violence. Men who watch their husbands, watch their father beat their moms will go on like almost one hundred percent to be their own lives in the same way men.
And it is the same for girls as well, but it manifests a little bit differently. So I am going to talk about boys, but, you know, people who are molested as children. Well, often as adults molest other children, it’s a cycle that needs to be broken. And so I’m not saying that every minute that every every man who raises, like I don’t know, has experienced something terribly traumatic in their past. But oftentimes they have.
And so, you know, those cycles also need to be interrupted and dealt with. And certainly it is true, there are people who do experienced violence in their home as children who don’t go on to perpetrate that as adults. But there is enough reason to indicate that it does happen physically and not that there do. There does need to be these types of interventions. And what happens is because we still, in Western culture, see the home as a private sphere and not a place where the state, in terms of police or social services, can intervene, although social services do intervene in the home and very many problematic ways that we can talk about later or in another episode.
It’s not a perfect system. I have a big beef against social workers. Don’t quote me, I’m not going to come and buy me in the ass in the future, but whatever, I don’t care. I have a beer.
You know, historically, we do know, you know, when women call the police, when they’re experiencing domestic violence in their home, there is very little that police as a force, as an institution can do to protect women in the home, which is why women often have to murder their husbands in order, you know, to stop the beating. And then they end up going to jail for murdering their husbands, where there is a huge record police record of women calling the police come to their house for like 20 years and the police can’t do anything.
And then these women go to jail. What’s this book called called Women Who Call? I went to my friend Gabby like three years ago and sent it back. But it’s a fantastic book, literally going to women who tell them it’s a fantastic book. It’s by Anna Jones. It’s incredible. And so, yeah, it’s like this is what happens. And women often have the murder of their husbands before they get any state intervention.
And so this is a problem. Right. But we have to teach, you know, men who experience violence in their home at a young age like not do that. But, you know, what is the teacher supposed to do when they see. They’re students mother, who clearly has a black eye that’s being covered by terrible makeup. You know, the teacher knows that violence is happening in the home. There’s nothing she can do about it. That is an intervention that can happen at the state level from the Ministry of Education, Ministry of Correctional Services, like they can figure it out.
You know what I mean? Child Protective Services. But we don’t do that.
Right. Structurally, the institution is set up, but there is no will, there is no will, and that might be.
Well, yeah, definitely. Do you think that the lack of the will comes from the politics? Because, you know, when I think about, you know, violence against women, Toxic masculinity, I’m always taken back to that picture of Trump signing that, you know, legislation about what women can do with their reproductive organs and things like that for foreign aid.
I think it was something like that.
Not one woman in the in the room with regard to that legislation.
Um, so do you think it’s a political problem? I think it comes from the politics, because I also think that personally, in my view, people such as Pretty Patel we have in the UK is the home secretary, very authoritarian woman, very harsh, very competitive, and embraces a lot of these, you know, traditionally male characteristics, I’d say, in terms of, you know, operating within a capitalist system.
But she’s got to the top. And I fear about women internalizing that and having to overcome that in order to succeed within the system.
And in Zahra Sultana, who was a Labour MP for Coventry, made a brilliant point that the failures of the deck, who is the Met police chief unpretty Patel, his home secretary, show that even when women get to the top in these systems, women aren’t protected. So there seems to be a problem with representation politics there as well. But the fact that even if there’s a woman in power, you’re not going to be helped in a in a capitalist system.
So I guess I guess my question is, do you think that fundamentally you have to change the system in which in which we live and to deal with this problem as well? Yeah, one hundred percent, I mean, we do. Here’s the thing, like when like internalized misogyny is real in the same way that, like, internalized homophobia, internalized racism, internalized anti-Semitism. I’m a Jewish person. I, you know, have dealt with that in my past.
So, you know, it is a way in which the white racist hetero male patriarchy teaches you to hate yourself. If you do not fit into that, you know, structure. And in order to succeed in the structure, you must become it. And that is why women like the ones that you just mentioned exist. Now, can we hold them accountable? Like yes or no? Like, yes. In the sense that, like, OK, don’t be a traitor to your gender and then, you know, like, no, because they’re just their victims as well.
So that’s where it gets complicated. OK, back after a technical glitch. We’re asking you about the system in general, the system, the system, the system.
Yeah, I mean, OK, here we go. We’re going to talk about the system and women who, you know, gain power in the system. You know what we often we feminist feminists say is like the patriarchy won’t protect you. Right. Even if you are able to ascend within the system of the patriarchy, politics, religion. You are able to marry a man who provides protection for you both financially and just within the home structure, at the end of the day, you are not like you are a beneficiary of the patriarchy.
And it isn’t. It is because it isn’t because of the story. It is because the patriarchy that you are safe. But just in a second, that can turn on you. And so, you know, there is such a thing as internalized misogyny, internalized homophobia, internalized racism, internalized anti-Semitism, internalized phobia, Islamophobia, all of these things. If you are not a white Christian, heterosexual male within the system of the patriarchy like you are. At risk of hitting yourself and finding that internal power is outside of the structure of the patriarchy is very difficult, but it can happen and that is what feminism is here to do.
That is the work of one of the works of feminism. And so when it comes to the institutionalized structures of the CIS, white, male, Christian, hetero patriarchy like religion and politics. You know, women can ascend in that ladder, but at a certain point, again, like I just said before, at a certain point they will reach a threshold where they realize that it doesn’t matter how much power they have. They are they are powerless to make meaningful change or they become active representatives of the patriarchy by blocking abortion rights or by claiming that, well, as long as as long as we have men around to protect women, it’s fine.
As long as we have guns. Fine. Oh, yeah. But we do need wholesale systemsand. I personally am an incremental I don’t believe in large scale, I don’t believe that large scale power changes, institutional power changes, I don’t believe that they often create the change that we set out to make. We set out to make a change. A revolution happened. And then there is a power vacuum filled by something equally, if not more problematic. And so I believe in.
Incremental change, small changes, which is difficult and frustrating, and it requires allies, but. Yeah, that is my answer to that question. No, that’s great. Of course. I think you did.
And just to you know, and some other things to add to what you’re saying about the state, I think it’s telling and how, you know, you just need to look at the US and the U.K., how they seem to resort to violence often, you know, in terms of foreign policy, whether that be wars or, you know, skirmishes abroad or the militarization of the police and things like that, it seems to me that violence is always one of the main things that the state you know, the leaders of our nations, you know, you have recourse to in order to solve problems or, you know, solve problems that they perceive.
And so when you have that kind of situation where even the state uses violence and then you look at culture as well, I we speak about some things in the last episode on Toxic masculinity, such as, you know, just things like James Bond and his attitudes toward women and violence and things like that. And what kind of effect does that have on people when you have those two things sort of operating in symbiosis kind of thing? What kind of results do you expect?
And it’s probably going to be some sort of violent and. Outlash, what kind of thing what kind of impact do you think culture has there and on this issue of violence against women? Your culture. Good question. I mean, look like there have been you know, there has been a lot of. There’s a lot of like poetry where about like the problem of the depiction of violence in media and honestly, I think Cher Horowitz and clueless like this is not a joke.
I’m being very serious. I think there was some suicides like until mankind stopped being violent. Why should we take it away? Why should we take away the enjoyment from violence in media? I mean, look, I think it is a problem. You know, is there is there probably a correlation between, like, the depiction of violence in media and how it teaches young children to behave? Absolutely. There is probably something there do I think we can scrub all violence away from.
Human life. Probably not. So I think having like a mediating. Factor in there are would help, but I think, you know, media culture, so we’re going to talk about culture and media as a part of the culture. And we’re talking about theater, social media. We’re talking about. Well, theater and social media and film and television, let’s go there. You know, it is a very important tool to help people understand as an audience, how are how to understand what’s going on in the world.
And so, yes, a gratuitous violence. Is not. Ideal. I don’t think it’s great, but I don’t know, I’m actually quite conflicted about this question. I’m curious what you guys think about it, because they do take immigrants, for example, gratuitously violent, gratuitously. Over overtly sexy with regards to the naked female body, and it did respond to audience. Outcry about the disproportionate amount of the naked female body that the audience was subject to, but at the same time watching that show as a, you know, someone in my late 20s when that was happening in Canada who.
Yes, I have been. By virtue of my privilege, subject to very little violence in my life, the physical violence, I haven’t watched a lot of physical violence. I’ve been privy to it. Watching that show, I was like, where is that? And if people die and it’s not great and I know that makes me sound like unsophisticated, but that’s how. Deeply privileged, I am, in terms of like being safe as an upper middle class, educated Jewish woman living in a large urban center for my entire life, and that means that I lived in Israel for a year and a half in close proximity to a lot of global violence, but I didn’t actually witness any of it.
So things like that. And also watching like historical felt like historical dramas like nineteen ninety seven, 1970, 1970.
There we go. I was like, wow, World War One literally fought by teenage children, teenage boys. So bad, and I know that, again, like as an educated person who has learned a lot about the world, who was worldly, it even took me by surprise. And that is the power of media. Right. And so do I think that we need to scrub away every instance of interpersonal violence into, you know, global violence by media like.
No, but do I think that, you know, one of the pieces of media where this conversation takes up a lot of hot air is video game. And like I think the video games are great. They really they help people concentration. It’s mindfulness. It’s meditative to a certain extent. There is an interpersonal there’s a social aspect to it. It really helps with problem solving. Do I think that every game needs to involve like the like have guns and.
No. So that’s kind of how I approach it. I’m sure other experts will have a much more articulate thing to say about it. But that’s how I feel. I’m not sure if that really answers your question, though.
It was great. It’s great. I agree. And I think it’s a balance. And I think that, you know, I’m not for scoring all those those things away as well. It’s, you know, I believe in like freedom of expression and things like that. But I do think it is important to keep an eye on how these things do affect the culture of how men see themselves in the world. Like with the James Bond thing, for example, doctors accentuate and glorify, you know, typical toxic masculinity traits of, you know, you know, violence, you know, is actually towards women, is terrible.
But it’s about knowing and being educated that those things that isn’t that’s fiction. You’re right. And it doesn’t have a bearing on on the real world or shouldn’t have a bearing on the real world.
One of the things that I’ve noticed in the aftermath of the court case is that I’m glad the a lot of the conversation is on men.
You know, a lot of it is pointed at men instead of because typically, you know, when things bring me up to me to move and things like that, and often people would say, well, what was she doing now?
What was she wearing, etc. But now it’s more about know men just, you know, take account of yourselves. And I think that that’s the direction that we do need to go in, because before it’s just been scapegoating and blaming women for being in that situation, walking not ruined, etc. And this is the kind of thing we need to change to to to move forward for sure.
Yeah, I mean, Sarah did everything right. She did everything that she was supposed to do. It was nine o’clock at night, which isn’t late, but it is considered nighttime. I guess he was fully covered up. He was on the phone with her boyfriend. You know, I have, you know, certainly walked in downtown Toronto late at night. And I think this may not be the best idea. And then I quickly said that thought out of my mind because movies are expensive and I’m only going.
Twenty minutes or whatever, and Uber isn’t even necessarily safe, like a safe option. And, you know, I’ll call my dad or I’ll call someone else and you know, and yeah, that’s it, because that’s what everybody tells you do like being on the phone or somebody else is supposed to protect you from being kidnapped. It’s not. We just me there. Oh, yes, he did everything right and he still got raped and brutally murdered.
So, I mean, that is an important yeah, it is important that that conversation shared. Yeah, I think that’s right.
Because, like I said, I think this was about Toxic masculinity in particular. And this is why I wanted to have this discussion right after the episode we had on that topic where that really comes into play, because it’s it seems to me that you like a lot of the pushback against this whole domestic violence. It’s always a man’s fault, is that they can come up with a number of reasons and a number of examples where, you know, it wasn’t a man.
You know, women can hit their husbands to. And, you know, it’s not always a white man hitting a woman who’s at home, all that sort of stuff. But I think so the Australia the National Bureau of Statistics, the ABS Bureau of Statistics just released that 10 year report that I shared with both of you when it came out a week ago. And it says that. Women are much more was 35 percent more likely to. Experienced domestic violence at home when they start to earn more than 50 percent of the household income and.
You know, a lot of people would say, like, oh, how would it’s a decade long study, so they’ve they’ve done a long term study with tens of thousands of people that I’ve looked into all the different possible reasons why this might happen. And it’s it’s only when the gender norm is violated that that increase in incidences of physical violence and emotional abuse at home happens. It’s it’s not. It’s when the man feels hurt, and I think that you said this earlier affair, but it’s the people that hurt other people are those that hurt themselves.
And it’s when a guy, a man feels attacked, their masculinity is being attacked because of this whole cultural shifting, you know, that makes a person more likely to react with violence and. This leads a guest into the discussion that I don’t want to spend too long on, but the conversation around in insults, which we mentioned briefly in Toxic masculinity episode as well, was involuntary celibate men and the existence of female celebrants who call themselves stemcells, because obviously it’s, again, not all men.
Of course not. There’s always going to be examples of people on both sides of the argument. But what I found interesting when I was reading into Intel’s muscle stem cells is that it’s also more likely to hurt other people when they feel attacked. And that’s why, you know, a lot of the mass shootings in the last decade have been white guys who have felt like society hasn’t treated them as badly as they have expected to do, whereas females are more likely to internalize that hurt and feel like it’s their own fault.
And, you know, they agree that sometimes domestic violence is acceptable. This is real women in these situations being beaten by the husband saying like, oh, it’s sometimes it’s okay.
Like, I should have been doing better. And the it goes back to that internalized misogyny that you’re talking about earlier, so. Yeah, I mean, typically, that is how men and women on the binary are socialized, but like women hurt themselves and men hurt others, and that is it’s so typical that it’s tragic, right? Like the way that it gets that it manifests. And, you know, this is one of the things about, you know, when talking about violent.
Gender and violence, it’s so not deep, you know what I mean? Like the like the the institutional problem is see how deep it goes, how hard it is to root out is deep. But the symptoms and the reason and you know how it functions is so off the surface of society that it’s. It it so it just like permeates our every system, and that’s why, like anyone can talk about it, anyone can do something about it, anyone can hear in their day to day life.
But that’s why it’s so depressing to talk about. Right. Because we all know it. It’s all in the air and we all have experience with it from the time we are very, very little to probably on this very day. You know, you have experienced some form, some form of gendered violence, whether it’s physical violence, sexual violence, emotional violence, financial violence. These are all a part of the political political gender violence. But these are all manifestations of violence.
It’s not just a punch in the face. So. This is why this problem is so hard to talk about, because it’s personal to everyone and yet. It’s public, it’s everywhere, so I’m so glad that you brought that up, and I, I haven’t I haven’t actually heard of themselves and probably because I still don’t really like reading about Insull, even though I know enough about them. I feel like I know enough about them that I don’t need to read them, but I not the truth.
Clearly, there’s more research and more you know, there’s been reporting on email and also been reading to do.
But again, even on that, even when I was reading about that. Again, the way it’s reported, it’s almost like. You’re surprised that stem cells exist because it’s stigmatized that women can always get sex if they need it, and a lot of like a lot of the reason why stem cells exist and it gets perpetuated within themselves and, you know, they feel like it’s all internalized as well as because all of these people are saying, like, you know, you know, involuntarily Stella Bowles like that’s the choice you have, because obviously any woman could possibly go out there and get it if they wanted to.
And it’s it’s all of this again, it’s all of this negative reporting generally by guys saying that, like, oh, your problems aren’t real problems because how dare they? Our problems are definitely worse than yours because we don’t get that choice. And again, like, it’s just this big rabbit hole that you just can’t I mean, I can’t stop going down where it’s like. It’s like people argue against something for the same reason that they’re feeling hurt themselves and and it’s it’s all like I hate to bring it up again, but Toxic masculinity it’s always the guy.
A man is feeling hurt because he feels like he was masculinity. His entire self is being hurt, but then he’s hurting other people based on their self identity. So it’s just perpetuating the cycle of hate. And then again, it’s emotional abuse. It’s emotional violence. And as you say, it’s it’s deeply personal for everyone. And which is why we don’t generally talk about it, which is why, you know, even just announcing that we were going to do this episode, so many people are like, oh, that’s so brave of you.
Like, good on you for having a discussion. Like, why aren’t we talking about this more and. I guess as we start to round out this episode, I guess it’s I want to talk about like how do we get men to care? Because as Tom said earlier, we need to be. Redirecting the conversation, and I think we asked him to say that a little bit, making men, you know, as we said, very proud of the very start of shaming other men in their circles of influence and trying to tell them like, hey, look, this isn’t like calling out other men, but also taking a second to think internally.
How is it the way that I’ve been raised? How is the money that I’m feeling in this moment? Why do I feel like I need to lash at someone telling me that the way I’ve been acting isn’t appropriate? Why is that my initial response? And how do you break that cycle where it’s a knee jerk reaction every time instead of taking that back to internalize and think about why it is I’m feeling this in the moment and then what’s a more appropriate response?
Yeah, I mean, it’s a good question, I wish I had you don’t have to I like having you as a guest.
Your dad. I would cut it up.
I mean, I know honestly. Right? I mean, so there there are a lot of conversations being had about how to tackle this problem. Right. And one of them is changing the language. OK, interpersonally, we between men, we know that this kind of like shaming doesn’t really work. So we’re going to have to find out something else. And in the meantime, you know, practice it with at your discretion, you know, trying to have this conversation within your social circle of gender to hetero men and also in queer circles as well.
Toxic masculinity is a huge problem as well. So having those conversations is really important and not leaving it up to the women in your social circle to do that emotionally. So that is like one you know, one approach. OK. And it’s going to be a slow move, but we’re going to do it another thing from like just like an interpersonal level is to kind of change the way we talk about, you know, right now we use a more positive term violence against women.
But what we really should be talking about is male violence against women or men who are violence against women and put more of a focus on the perpetrator and not on the victim. And so, you know, changing the way that we talk about it and yeah, I mean, when it comes to. I mean, it’s hard, right? Like, I don’t like it right now, like. Since the 70s, I mean, we you know, when that’s like the modern reigniting of the conversation when it comes to, you know, the safety of women both in public and in private, you know, to now 20, 21, 50 years is like a very short time.
What we do have is like a lot of data about what isn’t working right. Like what we know right now is what we’re doing is not meaningfully helping. And so what I think this provides in the year of our Gregorian calendar, 2021, this gives us a critical opportunity to look around and evaluate. And I think right now what a lot of researchers and. I want to leave legislators out of this because, again, like what we’re talking about is this institutional.
Limit that we have and what we’re able to do is giving people the opportunity to really evaluate critically in this moment. What direction we can take, and we don’t really have that answer, right, which is why it’s so frustrating, but I do think. You know. Then they get like the like look exactly so upsetting because, like, I’m a person who loves having an answer for everything and like, I don’t. But I think what the answer is, is that like.
We just need to keep holding legislators to account. But we’ve got like while I’m like an incrementalist in terms of change. And usually that incremental event for me is represented like at the pool, but like waiting for years in between elections is just too long. And when the pandemic, you know, lifts a little bit more and we’re able to take to the streets, more protest is like. Deeply impactful. And while it doesn’t always immediately result in legislative change, it really does a lot to ignite conversation.
Sometimes that increases polarization, but whatever that you know who’s on your side and you know, you’re up against the complicated, right? Like in recent years we have really seen a lot of public protest in the form of the meeting movement, which hasn’t been that complicated, but also in terms of like the environment, a lot of public protest with the environment. And that’s really help and also with Black Lives Matter as early as last year. So while we haven’t fully seen the impact of all of these public protests, it’s still happening.
We have seen a lot of short term changes in terms of like culture and conversation. But I think in the short term. Let’s protest the way I mean, look, Kate Middleton came to the Sarah Evrard protest and you know as well in Canada, so a part of the British colonies like to me, I understand. I understand what it takes to get Kate Middleton out of that fucking palace, you know what I mean?
Like, she doesn’t leave for much, you know, like she’s got a job to do. And that is like that’s crazy.
Yeah. Well, it looks like she’s got a job to do. It’s raising two children so that they’re not so deeply fucked up that they can’t continue the monarchy. And she’s working with her husband, the future king of England, to, you know, listen, this isn’t a conversation about the monarchy.
And I’m sure both of you have a lot, you know, whatever. But as it exists, you know, Kate Middleton, it takes a lot to get her to leave the house because she’s got a real job to do and leaving for the place to go. Be in solidarity with these women like that is. I did is like plans like years in advance and so forth, so we can leave the House to leave the policy for that, like that is quite a symbol, you know, and something that I don’t take lightly.
So that’s my answer for now.
Yeah, that’s good.
That’s good. I agree. The protesters. That’s why I’m so against this police crime bill, whatever they’re trying to pass in the UK, because it’s trying to basically it’s a move towards authoritarianism. Basically, I think it came out as a response to extinction, rebellion and people like that causing disruption. But under the current situation with coronavirus and and also with, you know, the violence against terror abroad, it’s almost been used as like a political tool to push it through.
So we need to resist that move towards authoritarianism. You know, the women’s movement is based on getting out and protest and being visible and within those rights back through civil disobedience. History tells us that and also for all the other rights that we enjoy, as we’ve said before on the podcast.
And I think it and then, you know, I think that it’s it’s it’s really important to try and stress to men that violence against women affects them, too.
You know, when I heard about Sarah’s case, I immediately thought about my mom and sister and, you know, friends and Prometa. And I started talking to them more about these kinds of serious issues and discovered things and stories and close calls that they themselves had had that I didn’t even know about. So it’s about having that conversation and seeing how close to home it is, because often women just, you know, keep these things to themselves. You know, we’ve seen that with the Metoo movement.
It took like 80 women coming forward for them to believe, you know, the allegations against Bill Cosby. And many, many women have stayed silent because of the culture that’s been created. And we need to try and break that down. Thing with Toxic masculinity is a huge issue. And I feel like men need to be able to be vulnerable and know that it’s OK to be vulnerable and. Because if you don’t have these kind of and then so, you know, ways to let out how you feel and things like that, you bottle it up and then it comes out in a violent way.
I think that also we have to try and. Kind of put forward a social responsibility and accountability around then, uh, you know, know that behavior is the choice and violence is a choice. You know, people who say that they didn’t mean to do it, you know, in terms of domestic violence and things like that, think about the other scenarios in which you wouldn’t use violence. So, you know, if someone’s hit the partner, when was the last time you hit your boss?
Oh, I can’t do that because I would lose my job. Well, so. So it is a choice then, you know, you don’t have to use violence. And I also think we need to see history. And the big picture, you know, we spoke about this in terms of slavery and how it affects black people still to this day, you know, unable to get capital and things like that because everything is owned and et cetera.
But, you know, women have traditionally been subordinated in religion, you know, in in society. They’ve been disenfranchised and confined to the home. The work that they’ve done in the home has been undervalued, completely altered. They do that. They do the majority of unpaid labor in the world still to this day. And that needs to change as well. And also just the reference back to the absurd for bullshit jobs. And women do most of the work and, you know, they do most of the work that that is caring and that is the least well paid.
So, for example, nurses in the UK, I believe it’s around 90 percent of nurses in the UK are female and. There’s been a report in The Guardian today saying that 75 percent of the UK single nurses can’t buy a home. That’s a different kind of violence to which we need to become attuned as well as an economic violence. Violence doesn’t always manifest itself in terms of physical, actual bodily harm. It can be economic in nature and on the system that we have definitely, definitely contributes towards that.
And I think just finally, I’d like to say that I think that one way that we could maybe move forward and it’s something that I briefly spoke about when I spoke to you, Ensler, the last time was that if we can somehow link all violence together, you know, so violence against women, violence against the environment, violence against race, etc., and build a mass movement, I think that that would be really powerful. And, you know, so this is just to start a conversation.
I don’t know how to do that on a personal level. It’s all about reaching out and talking to people such as yourself and talking to all the people and trying to come up with that, you know, pathway out of our current predicament. Hey, man, I agree. I mean, yeah, there is there’s a lot of power and conversation and a lot of power in storytelling. I mean, I do like what you said about, you know, asking the women in your life about their experiences.
You know, women don’t talk and men don’t ask. I mean, it’s kind of this is our silent agreement, the silent agreement of the of the genders. And we it is a function of the patriarchy to keep women silent and to keep men in the dark and not something that we need to rupture. That’s something that we need to break. And I think that is a good start. There are a lot of times where I have wanted to tell the men in my life about the violence that I’ve experienced and they can’t hear it or they don’t want to listen.
They can’t hear it or they are, but they’re not prepared for the answer. And it’s upsetting like it is most of the time. I don’t want to talk about it. Even they ask because they don’t have the resilience to hear. And I don’t know what it is. Maybe what they see on TV. They think it’s an exaggeration when oftentimes it’s the opposite. It’s actually it’s not.
Deeply accurate representation of the kind of violence that women experience on the daily, that it’s like boring to watch a lot of the time, but. That’s a whole other conversation, but you know what I would say to the men who are listening, you know, if it’s upsetting to you to hear the story, is that your female friends are telling you. But imagine what it was like having to go to the prom, and so it’s it’s work, you know.
It is work and it’s made me more selective about who I share these stories with. And yes, but it is really important.
And that is one of the ways in which we can begin to, like, rupture that, you know, like I said, this like silent agreement. And it’s the way that we can kind of break down toxic masculinity of it. So, yeah, I think that’s a great approach. And one thing that we can do when I’m. Yeah, that puts me in the mind of a video I watch just the other day, actually, where? Men were asked to raid.
Comments and tweets that were sent to female news reporters at sports news reporters in particular, and. This to say, men physically not able to say words out loud to these ladies that were written by complete strangers to them, but having sat down face to face, you know, like only a metre away from these these ladies and apologizing and looking at the camera saying, do I actually have to say this out loud?
That that is and that is how you make that is how you get men to empathize with women as opposed to sympathize. And I think I think I said this last episode as well as. When you sympathize with someone, it’s very easy to forget about that the next day you tell me a personal story. I can say, oh, my God, I’m so sorry you went through that and literally not even think it’s a thing to completely forget that you even told me that story.
If I empathize with you in the moment and and this is where I think a lot of men struggle, is that, yes, they don’t have the resilience to hear about it. They don’t have the context to understand. This is happening to you all the time, this isn’t a one off story that you’re telling me for the sake of it. And the reason that resilience is because they’re not thinking about this happening all the time, but. If when you can get someone to empathize with you by making them recognize that this is something that your friends and family are going through all the time, this is something that, like men in your life and people you see on the streets are doing to other people, that’s how you make it stick to that stick in their mind.
That’s how you make it. That’s how you make change happen.
Because when people are thinking about it all the time and recognizing this is a real issue and getting people talking is the first step at any point in any sort of change, that’s that’s how you actually create the fundamental changes that we need throughout society to recognize that women are equal. Because if we can’t create that mental step where we actually recognize women as being equal, well, forever going to be saying like, well, why didn’t she, you know, what was she wearing?
White victim, victim blaming. I had like what was she doing? Why was she walking at 10:00 p.m. at night time to go home? Why why did she call her boyfriend and be on the phone? That was stuff like the fact that that happens. And we’re we’re thinking more about the woman and her behaviors as opposed to the men instigating it.
Positively, I think we are moving in the right direction very slowly. I mean. The recent news that I’m pretty sure is Georgia or Florida or one of those very conservative states in the US just passed a law to say that it can’t be considered. It cannot be considered rape if the. Woman intentionally made herself drunk beforehand. That’s not exactly positive news, but the reaction to that has been so intense on social media and on news reports throughout the state that hopefully it shows that legislation needs to happen in the right way.
And as you say, like we need to actually legislate some of these changes to force men to recognize that it’s not OK to behave like this. And I know a lot of economists, for example, are very. Anxious. To allow government even more ability to regulate the way we feel about things and to try to get involved in cultural change, and I bring up economist because as I mentioned, that Australian Bureau of Statistics report that a lot of the.
Feminist movement right now is trying to encourage or improve the economic welfare of women and try to say, like if women start earning as much as men, it’s going to be better for everyone. But as we had when women and as much or more than men, men feel attacked and therefore domestic violence is more likely to go up. We can’t just look at the economics, but it’s things like, you know, better child raising policies.
That your family payments, parental leave. Childbirth, you know, maternity leave and paternity leave, when we start implementing them in a legislative sense and in our minds, we start to see a cultural sense of women as being more equal to men in so many different areas of society. That’s the way you slowly make change, you know, at a personal level, get people to empathize, get the state involved, and then holistically, hopefully society changes and we have the equality that we are also desperately fighting for.
Hey, man, I don’t know, I don’t necessarily want to be equal with men, I want men to come down and answer and I am kidding. Kidding.
I say some men that are pissed off right now because, like, that’s the thing. Like the the. The. Playing field, I don’t know, sports, I just I have no business know. Yeah.
You know, but it’s like it’s I forget I forget the author of this quote, but like, it’s not enough for us to be equal with men, for women to be equal with men, because then we’ll become just as monstrous. It’s it’s. So that we all come to like a better world and not, you know, and I I just butchered the quote, I guess violence butchered alone and I’ll find a quote, I’ll send it to you.
But, yeah, it’s about creating a whole new reality. And that is the reality that you’re talking about, because, again, like statistically, we see that, like, men don’t take paternity leave even even if they want to, because it’s not financially viable for them to do so, because we know the impact that parental leave has on, you know, a working person, you know, career trajectory and, you know, short term income.
So there’s there’s so much stress, really, that needs to change. Right around the right time. I believe I think you’re right, I think it’s I think it’s all about communication and keep on talking because I think we need to do that to ensure that what’s happening now on the progress that’s being made or the direction that we’re taking now isn’t lost in the news cycle, which seems to happen all too often. So I agree with you, like getting out in the streets, keep talking about I keep talking to your friends, calling out your friends when their behavior is is off.
It’s it’s all good stuff that we should we should continue to do. And thank you so much for coming on today and helping us discuss, you know, such a sensitive, important topic. My pleasure.
We can talk about something like like murder next time or I don’t know, we’ll just be you know what it that we talk about murder that. No, it’s my sincere pleasure. I love talking with you guys. I hope your audience agrees. And if there’s anything that they would like to talk to me about politely, they can find me on Instagram at Kaleem. I checked my messages folder. But, yeah, I really appreciate you guys, you know, having this conversation.
I don’t think you’re brave. I think you’re doing the bare minimum. Exactly. We agree. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
I mean, by taking men down a notch. No, I’m kidding. I genuinely, genuinely appreciate it. I think you’re doing great work and I can’t wait to see what else you do in the future. Well, thank you so much, Kelly, and everyone listening, you can find us at Thom’s, you and you on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. Please do let us know your thoughts on this topic. Please do get in touch if you have any questions, queries, comments, suggestions for future episode ideas or if you just want to.
Tell us you fell asleep listening to our beautiful voices once more, because that seems to be very common review again, which is I think it’s a positive thing. Again, bare minimum, we’ll take anything right now.
Not now. With me talking maybe with your very gentle dulcet tones.
You know, Australian, British, Delta that me I am what they call a shrill woman. So I don’t think anybody falling asleep in this episode, we love having this real woman on to tell us how to be better men.
Absolute pleasure. Hopefully we’ll get you on another podcast today as well. But for everyone else, we’ll have another amazing episode and another amazing guest probably on the next episode of Tom, Stu and You Podcast. But until then, have a wonderful day. I.