It’s Episode #47 – #FreePalestine and we are joined by Dalia Fakih to talk about the very important issues that face us with regard to Palestine and Israel. We aim to set these discussions in a historical context and in light of the recent reports from Human Rights Watch and B’Tselem, which categorise Israel to be an apartheid state that persecutes the Palestinian people in the occupied territories, Israel proper and the Gaza Strip.
Key Message: As Martin Luther King once said, “injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
Some of the key points we touch on in this episode:
– Zionism and History
– Geographical lay of the land
– Current situation – this is a human rights issue
– Recent escalations – how did this gain momentum?
– Media, censorship and international complicity
– Distinction between criticism of Israel & anti-semitism
– What is different this time and the solution?
– How to help
Who is Dalia?
Dalia Fakih, citizen of the world. A Cypriot of Palestinian and Lebanese decent, educated in the UK. Dalia is a law graduate here to start the conversation on Palestine and human rights. Talking about apartheid, persecution and what we can each do to see a free Palestine with justice and equality for all. Join the fight against selective human rights worldwide.
Individuals to Follow
Muhammed el Kurd
Muna El Kurd (Sheikh Jarrah)
Noura Erakat (Human Rights attorney)
Adnan Barq (East Jerusalem)
You can now watch our podcasts on Youtube if you’d prefer to also check us out while listening to our beautiful voices. Head over to our Youtube channel at Tom, Stu and You Podcast
Like us on Facebook and Instagram @tomstuandyou or send us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org with any questions, comments, thoughts, or queries you have on the topics we’ve discussed or any suggestions of topics you’d like to hear us address.
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Hi, everybody, welcome to the Tom, Stu and You Podcast. Forty seven. My name is Dalia and I’ll say, well there needs to be so wonder what we’re talking about.
Yeah I know. I mean, yeah, that that one thing that struck me.
How really did you say it was a tongue twister, which is a little bit I fall over. I fall over all the time. I tell tell and those are hard. So what are we talking about today? Dalia I mean I can say on your show already, but I figure for anyone that’s not watching a YouTube video, you’re going to give us a brief introduction as to who you are, how you know us, and and what’s the important topic that we’re going to be discussing for?
Hopefully not forever, even though it is the biggest conversation we’ve probably had on this one of the biggest conversations we’ve had on this on this, but very important.
Yeah. We’ll be talking about from my it and I have let me finish. I grew up in Phifer and I just think it’s really, really important to just kind of raise awareness and get people to really understand the gravity of what’s going on in Palestine on the ground, because it’s really something that everybody’s involvement in order to make a real change and to put an end to what’s been going on now for three years.
Thank you, sir, for joining us, Dalia. And we’re going to try and structure this a little bit together to provide a bit of context, because I think that’s important for the situation. It’s important to acknowledge from the outset how sensitive the issues are and we’ll be dealing with it as delicately as possible. So I suppose you’ve given us a bit of your background and how you are. You have a real nexus to what’s going on. I guess we should take it back and look at the history, which, in terms of the political history, isn’t old, almost like around a hundred years.
So you just want to take us back and kind of set the scene as to what we’re going to talk about.
Yeah, for sure. So basically, just just to give you a little bit of background of how. Palestine is. Where I’m from, it was it was part of the Ottoman Empire. It was part of the Ottoman Empire and went under British mandate and then eventually UN partition plan was passed in 1948 and kind of created Israel and split the country. Now, just to backtrack a little bit, this all did not come out of nowhere. There is a little bit of history here and it finds Israel finds its kind of roots in Zionism.
And this is where where it was originally found. It’s kind of flipping. Zionism was just basically a political movement, a settler colonial project with a view to finding a Jewish home where we’re talking, you know, over one hundred years ago now, they say the. And it would be the Bible battle program, and this is where they first have their eye on Palestine as a home for the Jewish people. And at the time, it’s important to note, actually, Cyprus was considered separate.
I’m a little bit know, OK, there’s another place that I’m from and also a little bit of Egypt was also it was also considered it was Palestine will find its agreed upon at this Zionist Congress. And it’s kind of fitting in in British politics. We wish there were some Zionist supporters within within Britain that kind of encouraged the Zionist Zionist movement as early on as 1915, two months after they they they declared war on the Ottoman Empire. You’ve got this very colonial memorandum going around in the UK government talking about colonization of Palestine.
And there was a kind of you know, you could get the Jewish support for World War One if we kind of pursue this. And there’s a lot of politics going going on there in the background. And eventually in 1917, you have this infamous Balfour Declaration, which kind of just is a promise on the part of the UK promising plans to to create the Jewish Jewish home. So effectively giving a geographical area for where this Zionist policies will will will start to take root.
And if they encourage the British to have a mandate, there was a mandate period where they were custodians of Palestine. And it’s important to note, actually, under this mandate, Facenda, the eventuality was the independence of the state. This is what this mandate system was there for. But it kind of immediately contradicts the seventies Balfour Declaration. So, anyway, just a quick we fast forward, you have a lot of population transfer under the British mandate.
A lot of Jewish refugees from around the world are moving to Palestine and there their victims to become a very big shift in population. And it begins to cause a lot of unrest in the country because you have this influx of refugees and the and the population is it’s this kind of process about unrest. And this is at the point that the UK hands over to the UN and they say, UN, we’ve got this. Can you think of it? And they come up with this 1948 partition plan, which ended up in what we call the Nakba, which is the great catastrophe, which is really the ethnic cleansing of that entire land.
You have over seven hundred thousand Palestinians displaced. Four hundred fifty plus villages burned. And if you keep in mind and taking in the times the the the atrocities that we’re we’re not even that wildly publicized. I can only imagine we’re taking we’re taking histories and stories of people now. And you’re getting to the level of atrocities that took place in this ethnic cleansing. It’s not just the displacement. It was the murder of the Palestinian people. And they and this is this has been ongoing in 1967.
Israel then has there was a war and Israel then has de facto power over over the entire Lama. And then even then, you have more ethnic cleansing. You have more people getting killed. You have more people becoming stateless. You have and it’s been ongoing. So if we look at the situation now, you have the ethnic cleansing, you have the apartheid system, and even one would argue so much more because of the level of weaponry and the myth that Israel has amassed since its birth in 1948 and the network of support that it seems to have in the wider world, that really people are now coming to see that actually this is this is a world issue.
This is something that the world is complicit in by enabling, enabling.
And there’s a lot to them. And what we’re just so let’s take it back a little bit. And I guess we should start with this distinction between Zionism and anti-Semitism. Could you explain that a little bit? Because I know that we all personally want to make it clear from the outset that anti-Semitism in any form is abhorrent. Unacceptable? Yes, it is not acceptable. But there’s a distinction to be made as the Dalia. And how do we make between Zionism and anti-Semitism?
I mean, yes, I completely agree that there needs to be a complete separation between Zionism and due to that due to them is not it’s not Zionism, it’s not Zionism at all. And this is a smokescreen that is used to kind of conflate a religious, something religious, something sacred with something which is a political movement rooted in the ethnic cleansing of the population. There is no religion that that advocate for the ethnic cleansing of of an entire population. So, yes, it is very important, I think, to kind of make that distinction that just because you are speaking up against Zionism, it does not mean that you are anti-Semitic.
And actually, Jews around the world have been speaking up and saying we are anti Zionist, we are not for Zionism, if you like, stop doing things in our name. Absolutely. You know, so it is really important to make that clear that Zionism is apartheid, its ethnic cleansing, its society, its foundation is in supremacy and the primacy of a specific group of people. And that that that is that doesn’t fit right in any kind of world that we live in, whether human rights Diefenbunker if it doesn’t happen and it need to be called out that it’s wrong, it’s wrong.
And it needs to be somebody like the the state of Israel itself has prominent Jewish critics like Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein, Bernie Sanders, David Gregory, to name a few. And I’ll just say there are Jewish groups that reject Zionism in and of itself because they believe that a state can’t be created until the Messiah comes back. And that’s the religious element that they have. And so it is so important to distinguish between those two things. And Zionism has manifested itself into what we see in Israel today.
And the simple and I’m just going to direct people to the Human Rights Watch report that came out and that has basically determined the situation in Israel is, of course, tied of persecution against the Palestinian people. And people should read that report certainly on the one that has come out by asylum, who are Israel’s leading human rights organization, which confirmed the same thing. Now, that’s that’s a damning indictment of the state of Israel, isn’t it? But it’s an apartheid state.
Yeah, I think it’s a very, very long time coming and Palestinians have been calling it out for years and years, and I think that the. The legal the legal threshold hasn’t yet been met, although it has been apparent at the time that it was on its its way to be that, if that makes sense, I think I think that they should have called the South a long, long time ago. And this is this is this is way, way overdue.
And apartheid is really just the you know, there’s there’s a lot more than just. Apartheid going on in Palestine, also, just to take it back to the British involvement around World War One, because obviously it always seems to be Britain that gets involved with these colonial immigrants every time, isn’t it? And I have a lot to answer for in history. And we talked about previously the importance of history and how that ripples through and still affects on the present day.
And it is important to know that things such as that that you spoke about, like the Balfour Declaration, which was all about birth, and they supported Zionism because they didn’t want Jews coming to the UK and things like that so that they were responsible for things like the nineteen eighty five Aliens Act in the UK, which sought to kind of find a place to, you know, put Jewish people, send Jewish people rather than accept them into their own countries.
And that could be seen as anti-Semitic itself. So the people who were pro Zionist were almost anti Semitic at the same time, which is interesting, which is an interesting observation, and also spoke about the critics of Israel and what to do in line. Chomsky and the rest of the people who seem to be pro Zionist seem to be people like Viktor Orban, Donald Trump, Tommy Robinson and people of that ilk. And so that to me is a huge red flag on where we go with this kind of with this kind of discussion and.
For you personally to see what’s been going on, what has that been like to share with this? Because you’ve obviously got a personal nexus to Palestine that’s very close to your heart. You said you still have family there. What has it been like to be to witness not just what’s happened in the past couple of months, but, you know, in years previous as of.
I mean, it’s been it’s been really difficult to really see what is going on and feel so helpless and know that this is a great injustice and that this is and that the people are so helpless and you feel helpless, all feeling that you can’t really do anything. And the people are being discriminated against. They’re being beaten. Their kids are being arrested and held in prison. Hundreds of children who are being arrested in prisons and 19 families were forced to register, you know, like that entire period for me.
I didn’t eat. I didn’t sleep. I was following everything that I put online, trying to get information. And it was it was just you’re dealing with that and you’re dealing with that kind of trauma of being here to see your people slaughtered. You know, there was one day I went to sleep and I thought, I’m going to wake up and everybody’s going to be dead, you know? But it’s that kind of level because what you’re dealing with is inhumanity.
What you’re dealing with is a is a is a is a is the most powerful military force in the area who doesn’t see you as human. And for me, that that was stuff that was a very, very difficult time, especially during the bombings. But even before hand, when I was seeing the what was going on in Iraq and and the of it was it was awful. And then on top of that, you have the added argument of having to kind of explain to people and, you know, and untangle the kind of smokescreens that are put across by the Zionists that control the media, that control not only the media is in the news, but the media and the social media and that are, you know, and you’re having to fight this propaganda war, you know, and to say that.
This is what you are what you have been taught is wrong and trying to justify that, it’s like order. It is another barrier. But I think it is really important to take a step back and kind of explain to people what is going on and kind of debunk these kind of myths that are just bandied about and give people a little bit more knowledge so they can kind of read the news and be able to understand or understand the situation. So, yeah, it’s been difficult, but I think it’s also been really good to see the popular movements around the world see the support for Palestine, the free Palestine, to be something that used to be just completely dove in music and use it over because it’s a of what anti Semitic that I exist.
I exist that I’m not going to say that. I mean, that in itself is completely inhumane. It’s dehumanizing somebody to say that, you know, but I live in a country that doesn’t even recognize my country. You know, I live in the UK. I am Palestinian. Yet the UK government, well, they think I’m pretty sure they did pass something in parliament to say that they should recognise Palestine and they’ve just not done it, you know, and for me, that that’s that’s a level of you know, you’re taking away my identity and my right to say I’m Palestinian.
I’m going to talk to it and say I am Palestinian, you know, like me, get down to that level. You can’t deny somebody their identity and you can. And and I think that’s on the on a bigger scale and taking this side of side of myself. What is happening there is a genocide that we are seeing in front of our eyes. The Palestinians are becoming drawn of it through their phones and they are shouting as much as they can to so to alert the world of what is going on.
And they’ve managed to burst through the censorship and floodgates that their voice is so strong. And I think that we all have a responsibility to amplify that voice and to actually take an interest because they are it is David and Goliath. They are against the most powerful military weapon in the world, military force in the world. And the international community is sitting back and saying, oh, you know, Israel has the right to defend itself. What is this defence?
This is not the oppression that you’re enabling. And why? Because you want the base in the area or because you want more weapons or this is the frustration and the helplessness that I’ve been that I’ve been feeling and the the the injustice. And it’s kind of it’s urgent. This needs to be fixed and it needs right away.
Absolutely. I think the reason why people everyone should be interested in this, what’s going on is for the reasons that Martin Luther King says you everybody said a threat to justice anywhere and an injustice anywhere is a statue of justice everywhere. And that’s absolutely the one we should we should look at this. And I think it might be useful for people to get an idea of the geographical layout that we have in Palestine, because it’s because it can be quite, you know, people in the UK or in Canada, I’m sure can consider it quite far away.
And they don’t know the lay of the land. And it’s always useful to look at them. I found in doing the research for this, it’s been super useful to look at maps and how those maps have changed over the years. So it might be useful to just go through the lay of the land at the moment and also how that’s changed if you come.
Yeah, so I guess we’ll talk about the current situation and how and how Pakistan is currently split up. You have you’ve got Gaza, which is the Gaza Strip, which is under siege by land, by air, by sea. It’s completely no freedom of movement. It’s made up of two million civilians. Just over 50 percent are children. And a lot of them actually are refugees from the 1948. So they have to flee because of the violence. And they they ended up a lot of them ended up in Gaza as well.
So you have that and then we’ll go into exactly what Israel does in Gaza. Then you have what you call Israel. By international standards, Palestinians refer to it as the force because that is the land that was basically split out from from Palestine. And in that area, you have really Israeli do you have Palestinians who they have they have an Israeli citizenship, but there are not they are second class citizens, third class citizens, you’d even say. And that system kind of works against them.
And not only that, in the recent events that’s been happening, we were seeing lynch mobs and that was all over the place as well as in the West Bank. So, you know, civilians acting against Palestinians with impunity. And then you’ve got the West Bank, which is West Bank of East Jerusalem. The both of those are internationally recognized as Palestine. And you’ve just got complete military rule there. No freedom, no citizenship, no rights both.
There’s absolutely zero rights for Palestinians. And you have two sets of laws there. You have civil law, which is applying in an occupied land, which is actually not even allowed, but that is applying for the settlers that are there. And then you have military rule for the Palestinians. Just to backtrack a little in the West Bank, what is going on there is Israel is illegally occupying this one and then they are building illegal settlements all over the West Bank and in East Jerusalem.
And those settlements are built on Palestinian land. And so the Palestinians are just being kind of kicked out of their lands to make way for these illegal settlements. And so that’s the situation that you have in West Bank and in East Jerusalem. And it’s an apartheid system across the board. You have an apartheid system in the apartheid system in East Jerusalem and in the West Bank. And then you have a complete the world’s largest concentration camp made up of civilians in Gaza.
So this is the kind of lay of the land as it is. And you have human rights violations, war crimes happening. At 30 degrees across the entire Lama.
Important to note as well, an amazing statistic I heard is that 90 percent, 96 percent of the war in Gaza is unfit for human consumption. And that comes from this report as well. And it’s just amazing. And then when you see the the fact that they are besieged, they are in fact, it’s described as an anachronism with nowhere to go so nicely populated, as you said, that 50 percent of the population are children under the age of 18.
So I don’t know what kind of terrorist threat they pose. And you’ve seen with the with the bombing, with the with the bombing of journalist offices and things like that. So the destruction of the media in the area, the destruction of coverage that they’re only covid center, I believe it was.
I mean, and this and this recent Gaza assault and very similar actually to the 2014 assault. They are targeting infrastructure. They are not only and they’re targeting civilians and they are targeting with impunity. So they they refer to it as let’s call the law. And and then they just go in there. And this time they watched very, very similar to the last time they hit the power network. They hit the water sanitation area. They hit the only Kovik center.
They killed two people. One was the medical, the chief medical and one of the biggest hospitals and also the with what we call the coordinator. So and then you’ve got the neurologist was also killed. And then apart from that, I mean, you also have media buildings, the presidential powers, the Houthis, the refugee camps, all the like. Everything that you could imagine is untouchable. They say they they they attack. And no warning. No warning.
You know, the media center, they gave a warning in the media center because it would have gotten such an international backlash that they have to be seen to be giving warning. Warning is not given to the civilians. And they intensified. And I know this is if I stayed up every single night, they intensified the attack at night using bombs that have no sound. You know, they there were reports that they used white phosphorus, you know, and they they they they displaced over 70000 people, displaced two hundred and forty eight killed.
And it’s still climbing, by the way. They so they finally allowed some trucks to go in to help with the removal of the of the rubble. They are uncovering more bodies. You know that the the death toll is climbing. And let me just remind you that children and their situation was bad before it was that twenty point will be unlivable. They have no electricity, they have no medicine. They have no water. They have no they even bombed the agricultural land.
Yeah. Stella Bowles the fact that I believe there’s about 50 percent unemployment in Gaza just in terms of economic security and things like 50 percent unemployment, I think that’s worse in the in the younger people as well and is completely blockaded as well. And Israel controls what goes in and out, even though they’re not like any. So they used to be settlements in Gaza. I believe what they would do because they were going to have the demographic majority that but they still control externally on to the fact they are still the occupying force in the area.
I think. Absolutely, absolutely. They are. They are completely restricting when they are, they are not only they are being bombed, you know, when something happens in the world and there’s a natural disaster or something and people are forced to flee, they have somewhere to go. They are enclosed and then they are being periodically bombed. And the international community wants to supply weapons to Israel, so says they have the right to defend themselves. The US blocked.
The UN, the UN eventually came up and going on the block three times before they wanted to do anything, but they have a veto power.
That’s the power of the United States as well. And that’s maybe something that we come on to, because if the United States were to be put under pressure by civil disobedience and things like that from the own population, then Israel could quickly become a pariah state without the support of the US and its the support of the US that kind of keeps Israel going anyway. So that’s why, you know, just just quickly, civil disobedience is so important. Put pressure on your governments to withdraw that kind of support for what is now being described as an apartheid regime.
So what kind of what kind of things? You know, this latest round of bombing and things that we’ve seen in Gaza, what set off was the increased settlements or evictions in Sheikh Jarrah and things in the West Bank?
I mean, so the Palestinians have been resisting, continues to resist the ethnic cleansing and the apartheid and the occupying forces. They’ve always been resisting and this time it’s kind of gains momentum and shift, which is a neighborhood in East Jerusalem. And it’s is the way that actually I ended up hearing so much from the explosion, so to speak, came from social media. You know, it’s it’s the come from BBC. It doesn’t come from these major news outlets that you that you come to rely on.
These things came to me from social media and seeing these journalists, plus Palestinian civilians, you know, reporting on the ground. What is happening is that demonstrations were being held all around East Jerusalem to kind of. Demonstrate against ethnic cleansing stuff, stealing our land, you building these illegal settlements and restricting our movement of the apartheid that they’re living in an apartheid, it’s like a military kind of apartheid, if you get what I mean. And these were violence dealt with.
They they use some force like they were the IDF, some water, what you call rubber bullets. I just want to clarify is still bullets that are just wrapped in rubber, but they are big silver bullets. They’re capable of killing someone and stun grenades and tear gas and all sorts of things. And then in the month of Ramadan, which is the holiest month, they closed off the Damascus Damascus gate of access to the Al-Aqsa Mosque. And then during Ramadan, they started to attack worshippers, Al-Aqsa Mosque.
And there was one day they actually attacked 300 people who had to run for shelter in the mosque and they were being attacked in the third holiest site in Islam in the holiest month. They are being attacked. And then you had the lynch mob. You had these words from history started jumping right out. This me from the history books, the word like pogrom, something I only learned in my history lesson was being used in terms of Palestinians being killed.
You had these mobs going around marking the doors and coming back. And the military is supporting that. The military was standing there and helping them, helping them do this. So it was just complete anarchy. You know, if you’re a Palestinian, you’re you’re you’re in you’re in really grave danger that you have from former IDF soldiers and former Israeli military soldiers that speak out about what they used to do.
So their mission is to terrorize. Their mission is to terrorize, to silence, to to just kind of like the stamp of the Palestinians. They don’t want to have any Palestinians. That is very apparent from a lot of the rhetoric that comes out from the politicians, from the Zionists, you know. So it’s. Yeah, so. So all of that was what was happening. And and Hamas gave a warning to Israel and said, stop attacking Palestinians.
We will resist. We cannot just sit here and watch you kill our people into our people, arbitrarily arrest the people of Israel, whatever you name it. They did it and they didn’t. And then that’s when Hamas sent some rockets. And of course, we all know Israel has this Iron Dome defense system that can just deflect a lot of those rockets, which are very crudely made rockets because they don’t have the precision and the level of destruction that Israeli military has and then gave Israel the excuse to go in and do their every couple of years.
Let’s move along and we have a great thing. We’re going to try and frame this and we’re going to say Hamas, this and this is actually how it was reflected in the media, which added to my frustration because I’m thinking I am seeing this live. I saw the lynch mobs last night where the, you know, are I like and and then then we have the announcement of the ceasefire. So so the ceasefire just means literally the day after they announced the ceasefire, they sold them off right away straightaway.
And if you take a step back, Neeshad. Well, what actually kicked us up was if the Al-Aqsa Mosque is the ethnic cleansing, is it? And all of a sudden everybody is celebrating. The ceasefire is fantastic. I was happy that the cease fire and they stopped bombing Gaza. But that just means you’re taking it back to what it was before and the fact that there has still been violence after the cease fire goes to show you that they they just went straight back to what they were doing with what actually is the thing the Palestinians rising up in the first place.
So you’re just basically going back to what it was before. And not only that, they announced Operation, Law and Order afterwards, which is mission to go and arrest one thousand five hundred Palestinians so that they can account for for for for the unrest and for whatever is going on. No Israeli has. Also account for the countless lynch mob that were organized around the country, all of the military who are regularly assaulting and breaking the law time and time again have not been held to account yet.
Palestinians and it’s not only adults, it is children that have been because the Israelis use children as a weapon. They use children to terrorize us, to keep us quiet. Sarah and Operation Law and Order and this arbitrary arrest of Palestinians, it’s nothing new. You know, the only reason that they announce at this time is that they could have announced that is to reassure the Israelis that something is being done and to also tell the Palestinians the violence. You know, because this arbitrary arrest, this happens anyway.
It’s nothing new. So it’s just, yeah, the cease fire is not the end. It’s actually it’s not even it’s not even the beginning. It’s a this state, this state that is rooted in racism and supremacy and colonialist attitude that this is my land and nobody was here before me that needs to be dismantled and that need to be dismantled. That is through, you know, stop educating your population the wrong thing. You’re feeding them this propaganda that is that it’s life.
It’s completely that’s something that the report I mentioned, those people say as well that the land is kind of being held for Jewish primacy in a way, and Palestinians are second class citizens, that they don’t have rights, you know, because the intend to make the conditions for outside of the intent to maintain domination, the systemic oppression and the inhumane acts of which which we heard today. Netanyahu has also said that they’ve agreed to unilaterally annex more of the West Bank.
So, yes, he has intentions or Hofstetter, if he’s still a leader at this moment in time, but he has intentions to extend sovereignty further into the West Bank and sell selling to all. The human rights group in Israel have said that land grabs the settlements on the infrastructure that primarily serves settlers effectively concentrate Palestinians in the West Bank, according to that. So in a hundred and sixty five non-contiguous territorial islands. So even the Palestinian life in the West Bank is not connected.
It’s broken up by settler roads. I believe that building roads for settlers so that you can live in the West Bank and commute to Tel Aviv without even seeing a Palestinian. So so this is a state this is a state as a political issue. And as we’ve been saying, because I think that a lot of people, a lot of Jewish people in Israel are kind of like divorced from the original members numbers for the life of me. But you said that it’s almost as though it’s something far away that we don’t see on a day to day basis.
You know, I live a very nice life because, you know, if you are Jewish Israelis, I say a democracy and it’s nice to live here. But the atrocities of the apartheid just seems so far away.
And I would like I would I would even say that it’s not at the moment. There is there is there is no democracy that favors one group of people over another faith based on religion. They are oppressing and suppressing and keeping. If you’re in the West Bank and Gaza, you’ve got in Gaza, you can’t you can’t go anywhere. Those people have not been I have never been qualified as a Palestinian, you know, but even in the country itself, they can.
They can they can’t move around the checkpoints, all the five hundred checkpoints in the West Bank that are opened and closed arbitrarily. You know, there’s a really good documentary on Netflix called The Prison that 20 minutes, just over twenty minutes. And it just shows the indignity that is experienced by an individual who all he wants to do is buy his wife. And you, Fred. And you see the dignity of the checkpoints, you see the way they want to fragment Palestinians, and not only that, they want to suppress the culture, they want to suppress, they were trying to rewrite the history.
They’ve destroyed all of the books. They say they Balthus like having a flag is not allowed using the colors of the watermelon became such an iconic thing for for Palestine because they said you’re not allowed to use the Palestinian colors in an art, you know, and they just try to find to oppress all of our food. You know, they try and pass off as Israeli, you know, and they just kind of try and diminish Palestine and deny its existence.
And we’re basically saying we’re not going anywhere. We exist. We have rights. We are human.
Yeah, absolutely. And then also, I believe in first East Jerusalem, the Palestinian people who live there have to prove that is at the center of their life and that’s why they’re allowed to stay there. But they could be removed from the area at any moment.
Yeah, so there’s insects, for example, they actually they are, but now they put cement blocks on either side of the road manned by military guard. Settlers can walk in and out freely as they please and be the Palestinian residents. They’re severely restricted. They can’t leave the area without fear that they won’t be able to come back. And, you know, to show you the level of small mindedness that they’re dealing with there. You have soldiers who just goes so goes up to the same individual every 20 minutes asking to see their papers and making a big problem out there.
If they’re safe together, having a good time, they will. The settlers, actually, the the military is there at the behest of the settlers in the settlers as they have a fire here. I don’t like it. The next thing you know, the military is is there and is breaking it apart, you know, there, or they will just shove them in their homes, just they go into your homes and you will see like a gate.
And on the other side, there’s just a massive a you know, like a big Palestinian family just behind the missile base because they’re being thrust into into their house. There is one house that is split into two. So they restrict permits. They don’t allow Palestinians to extend or improve any of their houses. So then they they will say, oh, you built this expression illegally, we’re going to freeze it. And then they see this. And then the next thing you know, settlers and stuff.
And there is one house I don’t know if you saw the one with Jacob Yakub, he’s in one of them somebody’s records, how they are one of the families, the six of us that are at risk of being forcibly removed. And their father built the annex to their house suspension. The Israeli court said this is illegal. You’ve got to have a permit. They closed it. And then the next thing you know, they installed settler Yakub in that annex and they and they share the same entrance to the house like it was the NSA service.
And there was a video where she said, you are stealing my house. And he says, well, if I don’t see why somebody else is going to feel this, this is the policy. This is how we perceive it is this that they have rights over the people who are from here, from Latin America somewhere as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So so it’s in the West Bank. You us like segregation and things like that. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. And you can’t guarantee that you’re going to be able to get to the checkpoint at any given point. They will, they will close that. They will open it. They will keep you there. There’s crowds and thousands and thousands of people just, just there like this with some animals better than that. Then you treat these Palestinians. It’s just this is continuing with the endorsement of the international community there and watching this because of whatever vested interest they have or influence maybe by the influence in terms of the Zionists influencing.
But it has to stop. And the only way that it can stop is people stand up and they say, no, this is wrong. You know, this is a complete violation of the very foundations of human rights that we all rely on. This is a complete violation. And not only is it being violated, we are allowing it. We are perpetuating it. And we are we are giving money for this. And it’s like, well, if you want to if I here I’m sitting here, I’m thinking I have human rights.
I have rights in this country, I have rights and I have these rights that I’m relying on can be taken away from me so easily. At what point will we stand up and we will say, no, these are sacred rights that needs to be respected. If today you are allowing this, what’s to say tomorrow you want to have some kind of characteristic that will all of a sudden make you subject to not having any rights, you know? So it’s kind of like it’s a very slippery slope.
And whilst our governments are standing up and doing what is right as a people, we have the power to be able to hold our governments accountable and to say that we don’t we don’t stand for this. This is not a complicated problem. This is not about fighting. And this is not self-defense. This is wrong. This is a settler colonial project that we are funding. And we are we are providing the weapons and we’re providing the the validation. You know, as long as Israel is sanctioned, they will feel like they can do whatever they want.
Yeah, yeah, that’s a big problem, I think, like a lot of people are probably listening to this right now and and wondering how is this possible? If Palestine is a is a recognized state, how is it possible that Israel has such a complete dominance over over Palestine? And I think that is the crux of the issue, is that despite the fact that Palestine is recognized as a state by. Almost all of the member states of the United Nations, despite all of that, despite being recognized around the world, Palestine is not a legal individuals separate state on its own.
Israel has civil and military control over basically the entire of what is recognized geographically as Palestine. And you know that I’ve given you the smallest amount of administration action to allow you. But as you say, and you’ll have experience and that of your family and friends, that’s that’s not happening. Segregation is real. And I guess until there is a Palestine state and until as long as Israelis continue to administer and occupy a land that is owned by people that it treats differently, that is a form of apartheid like that is that is the definition of apartheid as as defined by the United Nations when you when you treat a people different to those that are also within its land.
So the fact that you’re treating Jewish Israelis completely differently from the way that you’re treating Palestinians within Israel, that is apartheid, that that is the issue right now. And as you say, people need to stand up. And the Palestinian government isn’t doing that. They aren’t. They aren’t. They aren’t doing enough, and that is why individual people like yourselves need to be having these conversations, standing up and and gathering support from the international community to say, hey, this isn’t like human rights.
Exist for us, like we need human rights as well.
Yeah, for sure, and I mean, it goes you know, it’s apartheid, it’s genocide and ethnic cleansing, war crimes, human rights violations, it’s it’s a struggle of the oppressed. They have been oppressed for for 73 years and. It’s it’s time for the international community to just take a responsibility for what they created. You know, they Gazidis and I know they’ve worked with Zionism in Palestine. They have a responsibility to ensure that the human rights of Palestinians are being respected, are being upheld, that ethnic cleansing is not is not condoned anywhere.
Massacres, murder. You know, there needs to be accountability not only on Israel, but on those individuals who have who have perpetrated and committed these crimes, you know.
And expanding on that responsibility, I think, as well as we need to understand the role of the media and people having this conversation on social media and how they frame this issue and the fact that we call it a conflict between Israel and Palestine is itself a problem, you know? Yes, it is. It is it is truly terrible that Hamas is firing rockets into Israel. I, I don’t want to disregard the lived experience of Israelis living in Israel, living in fear of rockets going in as well.
But that’s that’s nothing compared to the systematic oppression of Israel against Palestine and and that whole apartheid genocide pace that we have discussed so very well in the last 50 minutes of this episode, like, yes, terrible things are happening, but you have to recognize the difference in power between Palestine as an occupied state and Israel, the fact that the Iron Dome system costs forty to one hundred thousand dollars per missile fired in defense of Israel. And the fact that the whole the whole fighting between Gaza and Israel over over that week, two weeks ago cost between 20 to 30 million dollars.
Like that’s just that’s that’s not even remotely accessible to people in Gaza. You know, when when Hamas is using Cold War era missiles that have zero technology behind them, that they have to fire at random and in large just to have some sort of impact compared to, as you say, the silent bombs that Israel has access to. Israel is the second largest military in the entire world, backed by the largest military in the world, which is a US purely for its own military strategic value that the US has given Israel.
There’s a complete difference in power between those two. And as you say, it is decades and decades of genocide, of apartheid, of oppression. And finally, the Palestinian people are standing up and pushing back. No, they shouldn’t resort to violence, but it is understandable. They are absolute frickin lately. But you can’t call it an equal level conflict when Israel has access to an enormous amount of money and an enormous amount of technology and warfare. And they are targeting a civilian population with 50 percent of children.
That is completely different to random missiles being fired.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Just really quickly on that point, I would say, you know, the. Always have the right to resist. Oppression at all. And this is basically what they’re doing. They are not going to die silently. They will sunset and they will stand up and they will say no, you know, and we will fight.
The opposition is echoed and, you know, well understood by Norman Finkelstein, who’s written a lot on the area on the conflict. Well, you’re absolutely right, Stuart. Just to point out the disproportionate use of force that Israel has capabilities. And, you know, we spoke about ethnic cleansing in the knockwurst, but it says the knuckler is still continuing to this day. You know, settlements are you know, Netanyahu says it himself that Israel is not a state or the nation state of the Jewish people.
And only then and he’s also a person who is committed to extending sovereignty into the West Bank, to increasing settlements in the West Bank and to fracturing the land that is Palestine in the West Bank. And ultimately, it’s called occupation. But really, it’s an exception because it doesn’t seem as though there is any intent to leave, which is annexation. And what they’re doing is against international law. People should call it out more so than they are during, you know, the international political community.
And the demographics is something that’s talked about in the whole life. And in particular, what is the emphasis on the quest for a strong Jewish majority have along the lines the Israeli government policy. That’s why they are expelling people, making life unbearable, because you could basically and destroying any notion that the life farmers of the olive groves destroyed farmers have turned up to their own land to find a Jewish people working on the land and that they’ve been actively remove from the land and ethnic cleansing.
The only reason why Israel left Gaza was because they were never going to get the majority and they didn’t want to count the two million Palestinians that live that into the record of, you know, people who live in that land because it’s all about maintaining in terms of this right wing Israeli government, the majority Jewish, the Jewish majority and the Jewish state in the area. So I’m for everyone to, you know, read the report identified by Human Rights Watch report, which is condemning the recommendations, basically talk about.
I mean, they basically talk about deconstructing Zionist movement, essentially, they talk about removing all of the settlements in the West Bank, allowing the people who were displaced in the 1948 not to come back and their descendants. So it was seven hundred thousand at the time, I believe. How many do you know? How many is not always in the millions of the seven million people.
And the right of return was for the very first thing that the UN said they possibly can. Right. All right. And what Palestinians should be given the right of return. And the thing with that, if they decided they wanted the land and they wanted the land empty and that’s what they continue to strive for, is a Jewish homeland without. And this is why I’ve heard some. Reports on online and on on Twitter and Instagram like interviews where they’ve interviewed Jewish Israelis full of Israeli citizens in the 48 and and they just have no they have no regard for four for Palestinians, Palestine and Palestinian identity.
You know, they say, well, they have Jordan and they have Syria and Lebanon. They have so many countries, you know, they call Palestinians Arabs. They don’t call policy failures and they are the only many countries are this just a description to say the families speak a language it doesn’t make? That’s not an identity. So, yeah, this is very much rooted in Palestinian identity being completely wiped out. And there.
We spoke earlier about, you know, during the Ottoman Empire how, you know, people who were the Muslim faith, Jewish people, Christians all live together. And then Britain got involved and screwed a lot. So do you foresee because people have often talked about a two state solution, but most of the commentary that I see nowadays is like the two state solution is is gone kind of thing that says it was never it was never a solution. It was a smokescreen.
It was something to basically in exchange for the two state solution, which was agreed in principle in the Oslo in the Oslo Accords, which actually was a massive, massive failure for the Palestinians. They they accepted 1967 borders, which was 22 percent of their land. And in principle, they they the Israelis say they signed up with a great threat. But why? Because they want to continue that. They want to continue the annexation. They want to continue the war.
And he didn’t sign Netanyahu did not sign the accords before he received confirmation that he would be able to say that Israel would be the one who can identify which areas are military zone. You know, so and having this excuse me, there was a conversation with Netanyahu. Basically, he was saying that what to define what the military is. All I can say, you know, all of you know, the whole the whole area is is a military zone.
And then we can have, you know, the the settlers, the settlements going that way. So it was always something that they wanted to find a they didn’t they never really were forced. And actually Israel themselves have come out and they said, you know, we don’t want to go into the solution, you know, and it would never it would never work. It would never work. Because what you would have had is you would have Palestine existing right next to a very racist state.
It’s like, for example, if you take in South Africa and you said, you know what, guys, we have a really big problem here. Let’s split the country in half and put all the white people on the one side and everybody who’s not like you might be black, Michael Brown. You might be, but he’s just not white. You’re just not of that. OK, that’s the green cloth. We’ll give you another country and we’ll say, well, that’s the solution, guys.
Here’s here’s our answer. That is not the answer. The answer is justice. The answer is equality. The answer is it’s human rights and peace for all. OK, we admit that we coexisted in that land all together and we were all fine. You know, it is just this Zionist idea of the primacy. But that’s that’s that’s the sound in the world of a free Palestine. You know, this this this this is nothing that you are better than somebody or you have a right to this because of your faith.
You know, the second thing you say to infringe on somebody else’s human rights, you know, that’s where we have a problem. You can believe whatever you want to believe. And I’m all for it, for freedom of religion, for freedom of of all of the stuff. But you do not infringe on somebody else’s rights to the detriment just just because it’s in your beliefs and your belief system. And I have a right to believe, you know what the second I believe translates to action.
We have a problem for sure.
Yeah. And I think now’s a good time to just to briefly touch on, again, the difference between being critical of Israel and its specific policies being implemented by the Israeli government and also being anti-Semitic, because I think it provides a little bit of context to then going into like what our what the solutions are, I guess, that we’re going to prefer. Yeah, we want to discuss with you. And it’s like YSC nicely because that to say that a two state solution doesn’t work for exactly what you described.
And a big part of the pushback against the against the pro Palestinian movement right now is, is by Jews who feel attacked by this movement around the world. And some of it is probably got a fair basis in the fact that a lot of people most likely in Western countries, for example, have jumped on board without fully understanding the situation. And so they they don’t see a difference between Judaism and Israel. And I guess I would kind of really like to distinguish the two, but also to encourage your listeners to just educate themselves and to read.
There is a whole host of materials out there and I mean the Jewish voice themselves. Jewish Voices for Peace is. A really good following, and they say they are kind of speaking up and saying stuff, stop doing things in our names, you know, this is not due to this. This is a political movement and you have no right to do this in our name. And it is a really important distinction because anti-Semitism is wrong in all its forms of Islamophobia and all of these, you know, every person has the right to be who they are and to believe what they want.
And and that’s and that’s the end of that. And this is actually what the Palestinians call the stand for. You know, the Palestinian cause stands for equality. It stands for justice. It stands for you know, it’s not a it’s not a selective thing, you know, justice for Palestinians or just we we we know what it is to be oppressed because we have been oppressed for so many years. We would never be we would never support anything that goes against our core values, you know?
So, yeah, it’s very important to distinguish it. And as I said, I find both Jewish voices, if there’s any doubt and learn from them. There’s a distinction on how the media is trying to create a smokescreen in order to distract from the fact, you know, like there was a massive announcement about the cease fire and then silence. So they are happy to go back to the status quo. You know, and there’s a lot of there’s just there’s a lot of material out there.
But that’s just another story, not just British politicians as well, that equated Zionism to anti-Semitism and didn’t make that distinction. I mean, Corbyn got kicked out. Why? Because, you know, he was pro Palestinian on the Web and the whole kind of Zionist website came together to oust him as being anti-Semitic. And that’s just totally not true. And that’s that’s one of the weapons that Zionists use. And I think that it’s becoming really much more important for people to practice media literacy and be able to understand exactly what they’re reading, what the forces are, and find this multitude of different mediums.
So just to be able to free to educate yourself because things are being done in our name, you know, so it’s time for us to stand up and say, well, no, I don’t stand for this. I don’t support this.
Yeah, I read in an article from years ago a couple of sentences that I think summarizes that’s the problem with this movement, I guess, being adopted by external actors and by people who aren’t informed about it. And it’s basically saying, like we are talking about LEVEL-HEADED fact based criticisms of Israeli policy. We’re not talking about the right of Israel to exist or the right of Israelis and Jewish people everywhere to safety and security, which is a right that all human beings should enjoy equally.
But that is specifically emphasized in the case of Jewish people in appropriate remembrance of the horrific events of the Holocaust. And I think that that’s like I think the problem is that so much of the pushback to the movement is that people falsely think the Palestinian movement relates directly to wanting an ethnic cleansing of Jews from from Palestine, from from West Asia. And that’s that’s not it at all. As you say, the whole movement is about equality and justice for all.
And I think that’s also why I like I know I brought this up before we can recall it briefly, but there’s an important distinguish between the Jewish Nakba and that persecution and subsequent expulsion from a lot of Arab countries decades and decades ago. So like in the 40s and the Palestinian Nakba, which we talked about many at the time. And the difference is that the Jewish people were if they were both being pushed and pulled out of certain countries, but towards their homeland, towards a country, Israel, where they were celebrated and they were welcomed, the differences of the Palestinian people being pushed out of their homeland.
And there is no country to go to this. There’s no self identity for them to go. There’s no country that self identifies. Yeah.
They are being ethnically cleansed, but they are being kicked out and they are being pushed out. And I think the fact, you know, it’s the first time, like right before we came on to here is that it is, as I heard, the Nachbar, which is the Palestinian word for the catastrophe, specifically for the 1948 movement being used in in this other form. It was the first time and it’s a little bit like a. A slap in the face, so to speak, in terms of using like.
But anyway, the displacement of Jewish people in whatever period that this happens is is not is not of relevance to the Palestinian question. Now, if there are Jewish people or Israelis, I don’t think that any Israeli who wants to leave Israel, you know, everybody who is in Israel is there to say. And that is where the problem is, because you are not only wanting to say you want to stay on my land and take my land or kick me out.
And then but if there is a question of, you know, a amongst the world that there are, you know, displaced Jewish people that want to return. Richard, you know, I would I would support that movement, you know, if you feel like you were disruptive and you were pushed to Israel and you need to go back. By all means, go back. And if by that point I get an added advantage, I guess my one boss, you know, and yeah, just just to reiterate, it is equality.
It is equality that this movement stands for, you know, so at all points, we are pro human, we are pro humanity and justice. And the right of return is the oldest is the first right by the UN is the right for the Palestinians to return. And we are seven million around the world in some of us stateless. We don’t have any any citizenship at all, no rights living in refugee camps, and it’s continuing. So this needs to be rectified and the Zionist state, as it is, cannot be allowed to exist.
It’s it’s the sea. It goes against every single human humanitarian, human rights, moral ethics, everything. It goes against it. And this is this is this is what Palestinians have been fighting for. Seventy three years. And I think now it’s it’s time for all of us to just. Put a stop to it, you know, the inspectors in the U.K. that is producing these weapons, two of the weapons that were used in of the systems were produced in the U.K., but it’s in the U.K. They have factories all around the U.K. where they are creating these drones and the weapon to then go.
And until we have blood on our hands by that, by the politicians who are signing these agreements, they have blood on their hands. You know, like we need to hold them to account and to not sidestep this and say Israel has the right to defend itself or smokescreen it or change the subject or make it look like there’s a cease fire and let’s celebrate. No, you’re right, they’re wrong. But you are not only started, but you perpetuate how much, just on that note, with all of its systems and things like that, how much have you been buoyed by the civil disobedience on the backs of solidarity?
I mean, it’s been it’s been really good. It’s been really, really, really great to see. And like I mean, I, I, I’ve been to demonstrations, you know, any demonstration that I guess you can get to. I’m there. I’m demonstrating. You know, it’s really important to use our voices, use our voices online, but also be there in our body. I remember the first demonstration I went through. It was very uplifting for me to see so many people because you feel isolated when you’re online and just seeing all of the things happening and you feel like you can’t do anything going out and showing that solidarity.
Like for me personally, the first one that I went through, I had tears in my eyes when I heard the chants from the river to the sea. It was the first time I ever heard that kind of phrase being said. You know, it was very emotional and it was very uplifting to see something that’s so, you know, you grow up knowing this injustice. I’m just. Kind of accepting that this is the way of the world, the world is unfair and this is and, you know, but then with with with the amount of visibility and with social media, even with the shadow banking, social media, they me and, you know, they have been censoring the Palestinian voices and we still managed to get our voices through and to see the all of Palestine united in the demonstrations in Gaza, in the forty eight in Jerusalem, in West Bank, when, as you mentioned before, they keep us segregated and they keep us separate and to see this movement across the entire country to say, no, we have had enough and to see it echoed in places in America, we would have never seen it before, like Washington, like New York, like Kansas, places that you would have never seen these kinds of demonstrations and people coming out.
And you can see actually the backlash to some of these celebrities are getting for standing up and, you know, so powerful. You can see the depth of where the Zionism is trying to influence and infiltrate. And we stand up and so we say, no, we are here, we have rights and enough is enough. Enough is enough. And action. Actually, my hat’s off to them. They’re the ones that are occupying. It was worth and it was all them.
I don’t know if there’s any other ones that they wanted to kind of demonstrate. And they hope that the production of the weapons that were being sent today had a direct effect on stopping you.
Also, you also, you know, and dock workers who refuse to load the military weapons for a year. Yeah, yeah. And and this kind of solidarity, this kind of thing that actually, you know, we the world works on the backs of the of the of the many little people, you know, and we are the ones who are saying and we’re saying, no, enough is enough. We don’t and I don’t support Palestine. You know, it’s all of the injustices that is happening all across the world.
You know, we have a responsibility for the people who are in a place of privilege, who have a voice, who have the education, who have the ability to speak up and to make a difference. I say use that voice, make a difference in any way that you can. You know, like it’s so important to the foundation of what kind of world do we want to live in? Is a collective right or is it universal, right?
Yeah, absolutely. And you said just before we get onto just before we get on to, I guess, how people can show more and learn more and show solidarity with the Palestinian people. I have I have one final question. Big question, I guess, for you. I know you can’t speak for all of the Palestinian people, but I’m just curious to get your personal opinion on this. Do you think there can be an Israel without Zionism or is it just so far embedded politically and culturally that there is no way for Israel to exist in in this current state that it is?
I think Israel was born out of Zionism, it was born out of the ethnic displacement of the Palestinians, of not only that, the massacre and the genocide and all of these things. And it’s perpetuated not only in that original act. But in everyday life, in civil society and wherever you look in education, if you look at this administration, look everywhere there is this it’s embedded in all this this scientific approach. So I think it’s very it’s I don’t think that.
Can be, I think, the. Jewish people, Palestinian people, and also the Muslims, however you want to label it and all, I think I am a great believer in humanity and coexistence and rights and mutual respect and all the things. And, yes, I think that they can live together, but they cannot live with Zionists and they cannot live among scientists. And they cannot be made to accept somebody who identifies as a Zionist. And for me, that Israel is equally with Zionists because of that is that is the foundation of where it started.
It started with a political Zionist movement that gave birth to Israel, which gave birth to the seventy three years long suffering. So I don’t know if it’s possible to actually be able to to have you can have positions for sure, but to be able to say somebody is for Israel to remain without Zionism. Does Israel have a future without Zionism? I’m not sure about that. This is the whole the whole ethos. The whole reason for being is, is this supremacy, this idea that you are better than.
Others or that you have more rights than others or that you are entitled to this because we’re skipping the last from now until the last thousand years, we’ll sit back and we’ll just like that kind of stuff. Doesn’t work for me. That doesn’t work. And I think it’s incongruous with a society that wants to be embedded in justice, equality and mutual respect. I think it will be very difficult to cope with something that I mean, the name Israel is now.
It’s Zionism. That is what it is. So it will be hard, I think. And my solution is, you know, one free land for all you know, it does not matter what your religion is, it doesn’t equality. And for that to happen, for their visa needs to be done. This needs to be done. There needs to be this ongoing displacement needs to be it needs to be ended.
I agree. I think that’s something that I think that it should be one state from the region that is democratic, that is just the equality that has representation at all levels for all people. And that’s because, of course.
So, yeah, we’re not talking about getting rid of Israelis. I’m not talking about getting rid of the Jewish people. I’m not talking about the citizens. We’re talking about getting rid of the state structure that that allows the Zionist regime and the abolishment of one free country with equal rights, equal opportunity, respect, respect for human rights and for that kind of thing. To even be a possibility, we have to look at solutions. And one of the solutions we touched on is civil disobedience, showing solidarity.
I think it’s been great to see the intersectionality between the Black Lives Matter movement, the Palestinian movement. That’s been great. I think Norman Finkelstein talked about the new young proletariat. And it is really great to see we’ve talked about a previous Ajyal Podcast you, the young people have a social sense of what’s going on and they stand off against injustice. And I think that that’s been fascinating to see as well. What other things can we look at other than taking to the streets, making our voices heard, amplifying Palestinian voices on social media?
We also look at something called the BDS movement, which is the.
Yeah, boycotts, divestment, sanctions, and it’s basically a movement that is focusing on boycotting pussy, basically how they put pressure on Israel and on other means. So boycotts and we call for sanctioning of sanctioning of Israel. I’m trying to stop companies from from from even going near these illegal settlements. And, you know, don’t fuck up your companies that don’t don’t have any involvement in that side when it comes to these illegal settlements. But actually, on the on the bigger scale sanction Israel.
You hold Israel accountable. And the way that this feeds movement works is boycotting. So they say they identify companies that have interests and who participate in this Zionist movement and who have direct business interests, like, for example, Caterpillar, who provides the machinery to knock down the Palestinian home, or you have Puma from sponsoring their football team and then you have the the other companies that are also supporting Zionism. So what what the media movement does is when you choose to I’m boycotting all of the products that I am finding that I have I’ve found out of these links on board something.
But what the previous movement kind of says is that you need to have Tavis’s boycott, because if you can have 100 hundred people boycotting one thing, 60 people boycotting and all these are really small numbers, but just an example. And and and whereas you could have a thousand people just boycotting one product, and that is more effective. So I would encourage you to just kind of follow the protest movement on the social accounts and sign up for the newsletter, keep an eye on what products are being prioritized.
I have done my own research. I know that those companies that are supporting Zionist, I will I will put them all on principle. So but if you want to be the most effective, the most effective way is to also follow the beads and make sure that for sure. One hundred percent you are boycotting those one and then everything else extra is a bonus like, you know. And it’s amazing how embedded these products are that you just so you wouldn’t have realized, you know, like to defend why L’Oreal and L’Oreal and so many areas and why access to so many things and so many products stuff one way and another way is not only amplifying Palestinian voices.
So make those Palestinian voices heard, but also right here. And, you know, right here, organizations right here, trade unions, get them to take a public stance on the issues, get them to speak up and hold some accounts. You know, like I’m finding petitions, signed the petition, signed a petition and free movement so that this can actually this can actually make a difference. So, yeah, I think I think there is there is there is every single person, every single person has a voice.
And together our voices are just stronger. So I think if it’s a concerted effort to to kind of Ann Makosinski, you know, I don’t want to I don’t want to stress the importance of media literacy is so important. You cannot and this is I’ve been you know, I’ve seen this firsthand how these media outlets are not covering things. So follow other news news outlets. I, I listen to Al Jazeera English. You know, they have some really good and then they have some spin off.
You know, they have some opinion pieces that you can find on YouTube. There’s a lot of news news outlets on YouTube that you can also see Democracy Now that has some really good ones. And then there’s other alternative ones like Arpit, which is the I think it’s the Russian TV in the PRC, which is a Turkish television. But also bear in mind, when you’re watching those wants to know that they have also some bias when it comes to national RCMP or national ones, things like electronic intifada, which I didn’t mention before, democracy.
Now, these kinds of ones that are there are more groundwork used by news is really good for these kinds of journalism. These media outlets are really important and the social media accounts for of Palestinian people living in Gaza full of Palestinian people. And there is a lot of English. And how much does is a really good following around you English speaker. So he a lot of his stuff are in English. This is the first one out of four. This is in Arabic, so if there’s any Arabic listeners, you know, she’s a really good one to also follow and then kind of build that social network up where you can get information and and like this has opened up my eyes for the suffering across the world, you know, because I started to follow comments like what sort of what radicalized you or or other kinds of accounts that that bring to life other things that we should know about, like what happened in Canada.
And then one other thing, the children that was something that, you know, what is happening in China, whether they have now raped they’ve killed one of the million people in China. They have the fact that no, you know, it’s like all of these things, you will get them if you open your eyes and you start reading things and listening to the right news channels and and being attention, because as a citizen of the world, we all have a responsibility to make sure that we are we can close our eyes and be willfully blind.
Willful ignorance is not acceptable. And in a way of life, in a world where so much media, you know, we have we’re lucky we’re lucky that we have this much information that use it to make a difference for for for the future, you know, to have a world where actually everybody’s right across the world are respected and our governments are finally representative of our views.
So smoke for us, wave. If you want to learn more about the importance of media literacy, we have done an episode on that in the past. And of course, we will have all of Dalia amazing suggestions you just mentioned in the show notes to this episode and in the description on on YouTube and also on our website, just with some further resources to do some exploring and to learn more about the different issues of Dalia was raised in this episode.
I also just wanted to say that, I mean, I’ve been very involved in the climate nature nexus, especially over the last couple of weeks. And I can see a very clear analogy between governments around the world making these pledges, but then doing nothing about it. And I can say that very clearly in the fact that all of these countries around the world and all the different UN member states have identified and recognized Palestine as a state, and yet they refuse to make any concrete actions to to pull in Israel and to actually.
Collapse, that their behavior, their actions for what it is for the apartheid that it is and it’s so great to say that finally I am a human rights report that has come out to say that, like, hey, yes, this is actually happening. This is confirmable. This is factual evidence based research here is a result. So now I guess it is up to all of us as individual citizens to get involved, become actual activists for the different human rights issues around the world, but in particular the Palestinian Palestinian cause as as the topic of this of this episode and recognize that, you know, the BTX movement is so important, like boycotting does actually have an impact, as does Eugenia MPs calling on your government to actually stand by the fact that that recognized Palestine as a state and to say that, hey, the actions of Israel as a as a as a government isn’t OK.
And and I say that with the amount of emotion that is within me and just wishing that there was better words to describe how not OK, this whole situation is. But, you know, there is something we can do and learning is a first step. And the fact that you’re listening to this episode, you’ve made it this whole way means that you’ve probably learned an entire enormous amount of information from Dalia, as I most certainly has. And so I I truly do implore you to to follow these accounts that she has mentioned to you to educate yourself and recognize that you can’t just rely on traditional media.
And I know we make fun of the right wing for saying this all the time. And there is a big difference between, like doing your own research. I say in inverted comments because you are skeptical and doing your own research because you don’t like the answer to what you’ve heard. But this is one of those cases where it is so important to recognize the biases inherent within these different sources and to spread out your information gathering sources so that over time you’ll you’ll begin to recognize the biases within them and you’ll be able to actually filter through the information more efficiently and more effectively and come to a conclusion, which is the fact that Israel is doing terrible things to the Palestinian people and we need to be fully behind this cause, not behind the cause of ethnic cleansing Jews and and Israeli citizens from the land, but supporting the Palestinian cause of justice, first and foremost, a free Palestine with equality for all.
Yeah, I’d just like to echo those things. It’s so important we speak constantly on this podcast about breaking out of chambers and reading widely across the spectrum and thinking critically to come to your own conclusions. We’ve spoken about, you know, how education, how it mustn’t stop, you know, when we come out of school or university or whatever, our lost connection with an institutionalised and we need to realize that things like the climate crisis that you brought up, what’s happened in Palestine and within capitalism is all linked, is all linked together.
And there’s intersectionality with those things to create a broad political movement that is going to be of the working class and the poor of the world. And following all those accounts, read the reports from B’Tselem, Human Rights Watch, because they are eye opening, to say the least, damning of Israel. And and I just want to say thank you to Dalia for taking the time to come on today and Lionel’s and talk us through what’s going on. I think you did that very well.
It’s such a sensitive topic, I know, for you and your family and, you know, working together in law firm and living in the same city. And you always someone with a great deal to engage with everyone and a great ability to bring people together and things like that. And I know it can often seem like an uphill struggle, but keep doing what you’re doing and keep championing the Palestinian plight. And there are a lot of people with you and we all.
Thank you so much and thank you so much for having me on here. It really means a lot to be able to get the message out there and get people welcoming, opening their eyes and looking at what’s going on. And, well, can people find you on social media talking about this constant.
So I’ve got a Twitter account. It’s called a flawed human idea. Give me a follow on there. I’m going to be creating an Instagram account, but it’s not up and running just yet. So Swithers is probably the best place to find me.
Wonderful. And I imagine if you’re at this time of the upsurge, you know, it’s coming. But if you have any comments, suggestions, thoughts, queries, you want to learn more. You want to get in touch with Dalia. Please do follow us at Tom, Stu and You Podcast on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter. You’re also welcome to send us an email high at Tom, Stu and You Podcast. We want to be very approachable about this topic and, of course, about all the topics that we discuss in this program.
And so if you want to have a further discussion, please do get in touch with us. We love to break down your echo chambers. We hope this is something that perhaps you had heard about, but you didn’t quite understand. You don’t really know what’s going on. Hopefully, we provided a somewhat balanced view as much as possible in something that has been so misrepresented in the media. And hopefully we came to some sort of conclusion that you can also support and hopefully some of our suggestions are things that you also come to as well.
But we understand not everyone can have the same opinion. So, of course, we want to continue this discussion. It’s not just a one and done kind of thing at all. It’s definitely something that I can personally I can confirm that I will continue reading about and be following closely and and doing all that I can to help help amplify the message of the Palestinian fight. So until next time, everyone, thank you so very much for joining us.
Of course, we’ll have another amazing guest right after he one of our future episodes. And until then, for capitalism and that side by side by side.